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Thread: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

  1. #19

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Take a look at the link you posted too.
    Be aware that Height and weight ratio charts are not truly accurate measures or indicators, this is especially so for children and teenagers.

    The average height to weight chart for girls and boys below represents a very rough average that should also be used in conjunction with a BMI calculator.
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  2. #20
    NCAA Champ ccbig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    Take a look at the link you posted too.
    Your link, my link and several others I have found point to the increases in weight being because of increases in body fat.

    The link I showed was showing the average weights for kids of a normal BMI not of the larger (fatter) BMI.

    So, I guess you just want to discriminate against healthy small athletes and favor fat ones.

    Is Bellmont home to a bunch of "big boned" kids? Sorry, just joking.

    I honestly can't understand your hatred of the smaller athlete.
    If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for, at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them.

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  3. #21

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Its not a hatred of a small athlete. I was a 103lber as a freshman that should not have been in the line-up. I wrestled 112lbs as a senior in high school. No bias what-so-ever against smaller kids.

    Also, the BMI, index is for the skinniest kids possible and doesn't even take into account a kid's build. As you probably have seen, some people are short and stocky and others are tall and lanky and everything in between. The BMI index will state that a short and stocky kid is overweight, when in reality they are fine.

    By the way I just did a BMI on my wrestler that just placed at Fargo at 152lbs. His natural weight is around 160lbs and he is 5'6"(at most) and it says he is overweight. I find that quite amusing personally!
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  4. #22

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    I think less could mean more for wrestling.

    How easy is it for districts to cut JV teams? It's already kind of easy, even easier when you have so many teams that don't have numbers that include back ups. How fun is it, especially in a great wrestling state like Minnesota, to go from the classroom to the starting lineup? I think that less weight classes could actually make the sport grow. It does tend to follow supply and demand theories. For all the talk about kids not wanting to be on JV, I think it flies in the face of my experience with kids which tends to have excessive losing rubbing them the wrong way. I think wrestling has too passively let go of the JV idea, even the Freshman team notion.

    I think less weight classes would make wrestling more accepted by athletic directors and put it more in line with other sports as far as numbers of starters needed. I think you could go back to having JV dual meets...which if you're having them in your area, you're a lucky, lucky man. That isn't happening in a lot of other places. Minnesota, if I'm not mistaken, is the one state that's taken the most steps towards reducing the number of weight classes. I can't speak for coaches there, but it would appear to me that they must be seeing something to make them want that.

  5. #23
    NCAA Champ ccbig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMT View Post
    I think less could mean more for wrestling.

    How easy is it for districts to cut JV teams? It's already kind of easy, even easier when you have so many teams that don't have numbers that include back ups. How fun is it, especially in a great wrestling state like Minnesota, to go from the classroom to the starting lineup? I think that less weight classes could actually make the sport grow. It does tend to follow supply and demand theories. For all the talk about kids not wanting to be on JV, I think it flies in the face of my experience with kids which tends to have excessive losing rubbing them the wrong way. I think wrestling has too passively let go of the JV idea, even the Freshman team notion.

    I think less weight classes would make wrestling more accepted by athletic directors and put it more in line with other sports as far as numbers of starters needed. I think you could go back to having JV dual meets...which if you're having them in your area, you're a lucky, lucky man. That isn't happening in a lot of other places. Minnesota, if I'm not mistaken, is the one state that's taken the most steps towards reducing the number of weight classes. I can't speak for coaches there, but it would appear to me that they must be seeing something to make them want that.
    This is just a my opinion but, I think many Minnesota coaches were looking for ways to beat Apple Valley.

    Many grumbles were made about a kid wrestling in 7th grade and the next year 8th grade winning state varsity 103.

    I have heard that some of those high placing 7th and 8th graders were held back (and not for academic reasons) a year or two in school. This meant some of those high placing 7th or 8th graders were actually old enough to be in 9th or 10th grades.

    I understand the problems in smaller schools. My wife's school was so small their high school competed in a 9 man football league.

    I agree that having strong JV and 9th grade programs are important, so are having good middle school and youth programs.

    I just don't see a answer to a problem of teams having open weights being cutting weights.

    Small school teams/programs should combine. My own sons wrestle for a combined high school program.

    I know many people locally who constantly devote themselves to promoting wrestling and driving hard to increase wrestling numbers. That's what I believe in the long term is the real solution.

    With so many for forfeits at the upper weights I find it disturbing that the call always seems to come to eliminate the lower weights. It's been my experience that the smaller wrestlers are usually much more experienced wrestlers then the majority of heavyweights.
    If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for, at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them.

    ~Paul Wellstone~

  6. #24
    NCAA Champ ccbig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    Its not a hatred of a small athlete. I was a 103lber as a freshman that should not have been in the line-up. I wrestled 112lbs as a senior in high school. No bias what-so-ever against smaller kids.

    Also, the BMI, index is for the skinniest kids possible and doesn't even take into account a kid's build. As you probably have seen, some people are short and stocky and others are tall and lanky and everything in between. The BMI index will state that a short and stocky kid is overweight, when in reality they are fine.

    By the way I just did a BMI on my wrestler that just placed at Fargo at 152lbs. His natural weight is around 160lbs and he is 5'6"(at most) and it says he is overweight. I find that quite amusing personally!

    Wow, that makes it even harder for me to understand why you would want to eliminate the smaller weights.

    My middle son started last year's varsity season (He was a 9th grader last year) weighing 90 lbs. as the 103.
    He is naturally small in height but is somewhat stocky. His BMI said his body fat was 6%. All high school season long he was eating 3000 to 5000 calories a day trying to maintain and increase his weight. By the end of the high school season he was up to 98 pounds. He has wrestled since kindergarden. He is a very experienced wrestler and won the spot in wrestle offs facing a larger wrestler (who had less experience).

    Would you say a kid like my son having that many years of experience in wrestling should have not been allowed to wrestle on the varsity team if he was the best wrestler at his weight class?

    I hear many times about how this might hurt the feelings of a upperclassman who might not be able to make the team at whatever weight he was at. What about earning that spot? Why is it more important about that upperclassman's feelings not be hurt then it is giving kids like my son the opportunity he has worked most of his life for?

    I think kids should earn a spot on a team by their ability not simply because of their age.
    If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for, at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them.

    ~Paul Wellstone~

  7. #25

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccbig View Post
    Wow, that makes it even harder for me to understand why you would want to eliminate the smaller weights.

    My middle son started last year's varsity season (He was a 9th grader last year) weighing 90 lbs. as the 103.
    He is naturally small in height but is somewhat stocky. His BMI said his body fat was 6%. All high school season long he was eating 3000 to 5000 calories a day trying to maintain and increase his weight. By the end of the high school season he was up to 98 pounds. He has wrestled since kindergarden. He is a very experienced wrestler and won the spot in wrestle offs facing a larger wrestler (who had less experience).

    Would you say a kid like my son having that many years of experience in wrestling should have not been allowed to wrestle on the varsity team if he was the best wrestler at his weight class?

    I hear many times about how this might hurt the feelings of a upperclassman who might not be able to make the team at whatever weight he was at. What about earning that spot? Why is it more important about that upperclassman's feelings not be hurt then it is giving kids like my son the opportunity he has worked most of his life for?

    I think kids should earn a spot on a team by their ability not simply because of their age.
    That is great that your son won the spot and he is increasingly in the minority in that he had to earn a spot by wrestling rather than just showing up and weighing 100lbs.

    What is wrong with him having to wait another year to grow and mature? While he is doing that wrestling JV and getting valuable time there?

    I see nothing wrong with a freshman at any weight being varsity. Its the fact that most freshman at 103lbs get the spot only because they are the smallest kid in the school(as I did). I would not have had a varsity spot at any other weight and would have most likely been better suited to wrestle JV as a freshman. I went 9-19 that year with 9 forfeits and was probably pinned 15 times! Most kids aren't going to stay out for a sport with that record. If I was JV I probably would have came out with a few wins against kids more my level.


    I love the light weights and think they are vital to the sport as I would not have had success in any other sport....other than maybe bowling, in high school. That is why my ideal weight classes would only bump 103 to 108lbs. Right now, I think there is too much of a gap between 112 and 103 and many kids are hurting themselves trying to make 103 because they think it will make them better. In reality though, they are hurting themselves.

    If you look at the past weight classes, the lowest weight class has been adjusted about every 20 years. It was due to humans in general getting bigger and taller. The last time a weight adjustment was made was 1987 and I think its time for another adjustment in the lowest weight class.

    Right now(in Indiana at least), the 103lb weight class is a joke. Not one senior qualified for state this year and only 3 juniors qualified for state. While there are some great wrestlers that qualified for state, they aren't even close to the quality that qualified at weights 125lbs and above.
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  8. #26

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    I can't really get behind an initiative that essentially results in few opportunities for wrestlers. I've read all of the concerns regarding forfeiting lower weight groups and 7th grade varsity starters, but wouldn't eliminating lower weights simply reduce the vigor with which the team actively recruits members, while also reducing options for smaller athletes?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
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    One thing I would like to see, though, is a weight added at the upper level in college. I have seen some pretty effective wrestlers that are too big for 197 but too small for Hwt. High school has a 215 pound group but college does not. To me this does not make sense.
    "There are those who celebrate "peace" no matter what the cost, yet reject war no matter what the benefit. Such persons should not be entrusted in matters of national security. Peace should be defined - not as the absence of conflict, but rather, the absence of conflict in the context of true liberty." Jointdoc55, 2002

  9. #27
    NCAA Champ ccbig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    That is great that your son won the spot and he is increasingly in the minority in that he had to earn a spot by wrestling rather than just showing up and weighing 100lbs.

    What is wrong with him having to wait another year to grow and mature? While he is doing that wrestling JV and getting valuable time there?

    I see nothing wrong with a freshman at any weight being varsity. Its the fact that most freshman at 103lbs get the spot only because they are the smallest kid in the school(as I did). I would not have had a varsity spot at any other weight and would have most likely been better suited to wrestle JV as a freshman. I went 9-19 that year with 9 forfeits and was probably pinned 15 times! Most kids aren't going to stay out for a sport with that record. If I was JV I probably would have came out with a few wins against kids more my level.


    I love the light weights and think they are vital to the sport as I would not have had success in any other sport....other than maybe bowling, in high school. That is why my ideal weight classes would only bump 103 to 108lbs. Right now, I think there is too much of a gap between 112 and 103 and many kids are hurting themselves trying to make 103 because they think it will make them better. In reality though, they are hurting themselves.

    If you look at the past weight classes, the lowest weight class has been adjusted about every 20 years. It was due to humans in general getting bigger and taller. The last time a weight adjustment was made was 1987 and I think its time for another adjustment in the lowest weight class.

    Right now(in Indiana at least), the 103lb weight class is a joke. Not one senior qualified for state this year and only 3 juniors qualified for state. While there are some great wrestlers that qualified for state, they aren't even close to the quality that qualified at weights 125lbs and above.
    In Minnesota we had 8 Juniors and 3 Seniors combined qualify for the state competition this last season at 103.

    JV is a great place to develop wrestlers. In my son's case I am certain as a JV wrestler his record would have had many more wins.

    My son won by forfeits 5 matches. That is the same number of matches the his team's heavyweight won by forfeit.

    He won 11 matches wrestling. 9 of his wins were by pin and 2 were by decision. That means in the matches he won, my son pinned his opponents 81% of the time. Does that sound like someone who should be maturing at the JV level?

    Now, at the same time my son was also pinned the most times on his team by his opponent. I think that was because of how much weight he was under the 103 most of the season (starting the season at 90 lbs. and reaching 98 by late January by eating massive calories) and the fact that many wrestlers he faced had dropped more then 20 lbs. to get down to the 103 weight class. Many of the wrestlers he faced were a full head taller then him and almost half again as wide in body size. Several of the wrestlers he faced at 103 were weeks later wrestling in the 120's in freestyle and greco.

    I have some issues myself about how much weight wrestler should be allowed to cut when they are at these ages and are growing and developing.

    There is a real need to have a place for quality small wrestlers to be on a varsity team. I take nothing away from the qualities of JV teams and the great development that would and do happen there for many wrestlers.

    I don't think in the case of my son or kids in his size and experience level
    are better served racking up massive win counts in JV because they outclass most of their potential JV competition. I think my son learned much more having to face varsity opponents that pushed him to his limits.

    What it seems to come down to is a philosophy of underclassman being a common thing on a varsity team. I have to stand by my stance that let the most skilled kids wrestle.

    When it comes to eliminating weights because of the numbers participating the top 4 heavier weight classes stand out because for those size athletes there are many more opportunities available to them in other sports. That is a recruiting issue.

    I also still believe esp. when taking into account new immigration from 3rd world nations there are plenty of kids available in the right ages and sizes to fill the lower weights. Again it is a recruiting issue.
    If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for, at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them.

    ~Paul Wellstone~

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