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Thread: Best College Wrestlers Ever

  1. #10

    Default Re: Best College Wrestlers Ever

    A strong argument can be made that Dake is the greatest collegiate wrestler over Sanderson. If you look at who they beat to get each of their 4 titles, there is no contest....

    Sanderson:
    - 1999: Branden Eggum (1x RU, 3x AA)
    - 2000: Vertus Jones (1x RU, 3x AA)
    - 2001: Daniel Cormier (1x RU, 2x JUCO NC)
    - 2002: Jon Trenge (2x RU, 3x AA)

    Dake:
    - 2010: Montell Marion (2x RU, 3x AA)
    - 2011: Frank Molinaro (1x NC, 1x RU, 4x AA)
    - 2012: Derek St. John (1x NC, 1x RU, 3x AA, 1 year remains)
    - 2013: David Taylor (1x NC, 2x RU, Hodge Trophy, 1 year remains)

    It is very possible that DSJ becomes a 2x champ/3x finalist/4x AA and Taylor becomes a 2x champ/4x finalist/2x Hodge Trophy winner. Sanderson's best opponent achievement wise (Trenge) is equivalent to Dake's worst opponent (Marion). Dake also won without a redshirt in 4 different weight classes. Granted, Dake has 4 losses vs Sanderson's zero, but what ultimately matters is who you beat on the biggest stage. You can also make the argument that 141-165 are deeper and more challenging weight classes than 184-197, but I won't go there. Personally, I'd rank Sanderson as #1 and Dake as #2, but I can understand putting Dake as #1.

  2. #11

    Default Re: Best College Wrestlers Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by ODH View Post
    I know Steiber has only completed two years, but he is certainly on track to be on that list, especially with his beatng Jordan Oliver in the finals as a true freshman
    Pretty sure that he wasn't a true freshman, took a medical redshirt the year previous. But, still a real accomplishment nonetheless.

  3. #12

    Default Re: Best College Wrestlers Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by oldfart View Post
    Pretty sure that he wasn't a true freshman, took a medical redshirt the year previous. But, still a real accomplishment nonetheless.
    True facts.
    To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.

  4. #13
    World Champ ODH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best College Wrestlers Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by oldfart View Post
    Pretty sure that he wasn't a true freshman, took a medical redshirt the year previous. But, still a real accomplishment nonetheless.
    Yeah, I knew that but somehow my finger went on autopilot and inserted true before freshman...

    I have thought the most impressive thing about Dake's title is that he did it without a redshirt, which is more impressive in my miind than winning in four different weightclasses.
    Pat Smith, I believe, won as a true freshman and took his redshirt later when Ok. State was on probation and could not compete as nationals.

  5. #14
    National Finalist FalconWrestlingKY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best College Wrestlers Ever

    As I always say when it comes down to rankings you have to decide the criteria you will lose. (I am on the state ranking comittee in Kentucky so I have to go through this all the freaking time)

    You have to decide what order to put
    1. Championships
    2. record
    3. Wins vs Tough Guys
    4. Losses to scrubs
    5. International success
    6. Technical prowess
    7. Dominance of wins

    Different criteria favors different wrestlers. For example criteria 1, 2, and 4 favor Cael Sanderson, criteria 3 favors Kyle Dake, criteria 5 and 6 favor John Smith and Dan Gable, criteria 7 favors tons of guys but Metcalf comes to mind (whenever he won he dominated)
    "I looked up at the scoreboard and I was like, I can't do math that fast!" - Ed Ruth

  6. #15
    NCAA Champ BlueBloodLion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best College Wrestlers Ever

    Quote Originally Posted by JKreisel View Post
    A strong argument can be made that Dake is the greatest collegiate wrestler over Sanderson. If you look at who they beat to get each of their 4 titles, there is no contest....

    Sanderson:
    - 1999: Branden Eggum (1x RU, 3x AA)
    - 2000: Vertus Jones (1x RU, 3x AA)
    - 2001: Daniel Cormier (1x RU, 2x JUCO NC)
    - 2002: Jon Trenge (2x RU, 3x AA)

    Dake:
    - 2010: Montell Marion (2x RU, 3x AA)
    - 2011: Frank Molinaro (1x NC, 1x RU, 4x AA)
    - 2012: Derek St. John (1x NC, 1x RU, 3x AA, 1 year remains)
    - 2013: David Taylor (1x NC, 2x RU, Hodge Trophy, 1 year remains)

    It is very possible that DSJ becomes a 2x champ/3x finalist/4x AA and Taylor becomes a 2x champ/4x finalist/2x Hodge Trophy winner. Sanderson's best opponent achievement wise (Trenge) is equivalent to Dake's worst opponent (Marion). Dake also won without a redshirt in 4 different weight classes. Granted, Dake has 4 losses vs Sanderson's zero, but what ultimately matters is who you beat on the biggest stage. You can also make the argument that 141-165 are deeper and more challenging weight classes than 184-197, but I won't go there. Personally, I'd rank Sanderson as #1 and Dake as #2, but I can understand putting Dake as #1.
    Let's compare their losses:
    Dake lost to...
    Vinson very early in Vinson's career (6 losses, went 0-2 at NCAAs)
    Levalley (good, but 3 losses that year),
    Bailey (8 losses that year!),
    Humphrey (4 losses)

    Cael lost to....

    You can't control who you get to wrestle, so saying he wasn't as good because he beat weaker people isn't a very strong stand-alone argument. Maybe Cael's competition was a little weaker. But maybe it seemed weaker because he was beating them (as mentioned before). But you absolutely can control who you lose to, in my mind that can be a better indicator. Dake had 4 losses, which means on certain days, he was worse than those 4 guys. Cael never lost, so he never wrestled down.
    If they were both undefeated, of ir Dake's losses were only to really good guys, then it would be time to compare their competition.

  7. #16
    World Champ ODH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best College Wrestlers Ever

    I also think it makes sense to figure out if we are trying to decide on the "Greatest College Wrestler" ever or the wrestler who had the greatest collegiate career ever. To me I think we should look at a wrestler when they were at their peak and how great they were at the end and judge that rather than giving equal weigth to their freshman year.
    Keeping that in mind I think Jordan Burroughs and John Smith are among the greatest college wrestlers ever as they were best in the world while the same year they were still wrestling collegiately.

  8. #17

    Default Re: Best College Wrestlers Ever

    I don't think the fact that Dake has beaten better wrestlers is disputable. He has the edge in that area.

    But he still has a few What the heck losses to Kevin LeValley, Donnie Vinson, Zach Bailey and Reece Humphrey. All are fine wrestlers(especially Reece), but losing 4 times is something that has to be factored in.

    We know he never lost when it really mattered(though he has more NCAA titles than EIWA titles), but when separating the best, you have to get nitpicky.
    To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.

  9. #18

    Default Re: Best College Wrestlers Ever

    I agree, which is why Cael will remain #1 until someone wins 4 titles, remains undefeated, and has stronger competition. However, due to the subjectivity of ranking GOATs, quality of competition is a huge factor. Dake's championship competition could end up being comprised of 5x NCs/6x RUs (11/16 finalists) and 15x AAs! Like Cael's undefeated record, Dake's quality of competition may never be matched.

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