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Thread: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

  1. #19
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    I have no doubt that scientologists do good deeds, and (as I said earlier) it helps many people get through tough times. Still, for my opinion of Scientology to change, I would have to see a defense of it and a refutation of the media accusations from a credible source other than scientologists.
    If that happens in my lifetime, I will be very surprised. But then whoever expected the Berlin Wall to come down & Apartheid to end. There is always hope & hard work!

    The best I have to offer is this:
    How Religious Experts View Scientology
    The link offers over 20 different studies done by various professors & theologians
    from around the world written in about 5 different languages.
    Some of the authors are from
    Oxford University (UK)
    Washington University (St Louis)
    Southern Methodist University (Dallas)
    Universities of Rome, Stockholm, New South Wales & Warwick,
    If you care to look you might an essay or paper that strikes your fancy.

    Anyways I guess i hijacked this thread long enough...

  2. #20
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    Quote Originally Posted by LkwdSteve View Post
    "Very easy to say when you are on the other side of the argument."

    Hmmm. You are born as jewish. You are trained to be an "ologist" (of any sort). LIke I said I don't see the analogy.

    Racism, as a modern term, has a (pseudo) scientific basis, eugenics, and was a result of an urgent demand by significant groups of white people for some kind of plausible reason to ignore their religious trainings, and drastically descriminate against blacks. Disdain for "ologists", of one sort or another, isn't racism. True rasicm has existed forever, under other names, but has always targeted types of people, NOT types of beliefs.

    That's not to say racism is the root of all evil. It's not. It is the root of plenty, but not all problems. "Us vs. them" is often enough religious. For example, shia muslim vs. sunni muslim has been an ongoing cold war, by now bordering on "warm", with Syria as the latest battlefield. Your analogy works if broadened to incorporate beliefs over and above looks or race.

    We are on opposite sides of arguments presented here, if you 1) disagree on the movie's casting choice for the main character, or if you 2) disagree on the definition of rasicsm.

    No huge deal either way.

    Close association with Scientology makes one sensitive to negative comments. Understandable. It's been an educational thread for a few reasons.
    Steve, I am not even a Jack Reacher fan so I have stake in who plays the part. I merely objected to HOW Spider characterized Cruise. If he might have just called him a midget, I might have just let it go at that... :P

    My point is that I oppose divisive language and attempts to make one group seeming more important than another b/c of opinion. In the 1930s Jews were promoted in demeaning language to make the German populace consider them less than human & hence not worthy of humane action & consideration. THAT opened the door to the Holocaust.

    And if you trace the history of any sort of genocide on this planet you find that divisive & demeaning language & propaganda was at the root of it. If you watch any TV news show you find that the majority of it is bad news & portraying THREATS that we need to be protected from. Always creating a sense of US vs THEM. I spend a lot of time fighting that very notion. And as history has shown often ENEMIES are created & evil is promoted. As opposed to an idea that people are basically good & that will think of others often before thinking of themselves.

  3. #21
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    Quote Originally Posted by kr1963 View Post
    Steve, I am not even a Jack Reacher fan so I have stake in who plays the part. I merely objected to HOW Spider characterized Cruise. If he might have just called him a midget, I might have just let it go at that... :P

    My point is that I oppose divisive language and attempts to make one group seeming more important than another b/c of opinion. In the 1930s Jews were promoted in demeaning language to make the German populace consider them less than human & hence not worthy of humane action & consideration. THAT opened the door to the Holocaust.

    And if you trace the history of any sort of genocide on this planet you find that divisive & demeaning language & propaganda was at the root of it. If you watch any TV news show you find that the majority of it is bad news & portraying THREATS that we need to be protected from. Always creating a sense of US vs THEM. I spend a lot of time fighting that very notion. And as history has shown often ENEMIES are created & evil is promoted. As opposed to an idea that people are basically good & that will think of others often before thinking of themselves.
    I'm afraid I'm going to continue the hijack. Maybe a moderator could move this thread to the Politics & Religion forum where it now belongs. KR, I looked at some of the articles you cited and all they say is that scientology qualifies as a religion. They don't address my main concerns, which are the reports in the media of physical and emotional abuse of members, harassment of "defectors," and control of members' lives and finances. I'm sure you are aware of all the negative publicity. I can't help but believe that these numerous reports have some validity, as this type of behavior has been seen over and over in quasi-religious groups. This conclusion seems much more likely to me than your assertion that the mainstream media are out to get scientology and will fabricate or perpetuate lies to do so.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  4. #22

    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    "sort of genocide on this planet you find that divisive & demeaning language & propaganda was at the root of it."

    An interesting question.

    I'm not sure these type of communication cababilities are the root of such actions, but they are "grand enablers".

    I've always argued that it is not natural for man to murder one another. And that war is a "nuture" issue rather than "nature" (though I've found reasons to rethink that). Language plays a role.

    These issues are more important than movie roles of course.
    DSCH: a Soviet artist's reply to unjust criticism.

  5. #23
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    I'm afraid I'm going to continue the hijack. Maybe a moderator could move this thread to the Politics & Religion forum where it now belongs. KR, I looked at some of the articles you cited and all they say is that Scientology qualifies as a religion. They don't address my main concerns, which are the reports in the media of physical and emotional abuse of members, harassment of "defectors," and control of members' lives and finances. I'm sure you are aware of all the negative publicity. I can't help but believe that these numerous reports have some validity, as this type of behavior has been seen over and over in quasi-religious groups. This conclusion seems much more likely to me than your assertion that the mainstream media are out to get Scientology and will fabricate or perpetuate lies to do so.
    Spider I am going to send you a PM. I do not want to take up the public airways with this anymore.. thanks.

  6. #24
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    Quote Originally Posted by LkwdSteve View Post
    "sort of genocide on this planet you find that divisive & demeaning language & propaganda was at the root of it."

    An interesting question.

    I'm not sure these type of communication cababilities are the root of such actions, but they are "grand enablers".

    I've always argued that it is not natural for man to murder one another. And that war is a "nuture" issue rather than "nature" (though I've found reasons to rethink that). Language plays a role.

    These issues are more important than movie roles of course.
    Awell the history of Public Relations, Propaganda & Advertising well show you just how well people can be manipulated....

  7. #25
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    Quote Originally Posted by kr1963 View Post
    Spider I am going to send you a PM. I do not want to take up the public airways with this anymore.. thanks.
    Reply PM sent.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  8. #26

    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    PMs and reply PMs are boring and make me lose interest in the thread. Bummer.

  9. #27
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    Sorry, Flop, but I have to respect KR's privacy. Here's my repsonse to his PM, though.

    KR, I really appreciate your taking the time to explain these things to me, and I tried very hard to read your messages with an open mind.

    Regarding religion in general, I readily admit that I don't have all the answers and that my beliefs could be entirely wrong, but I am firmly convinced that all religions are based on the erroneous belief that a supreme being exists and/or that there is more to us than just physical existence on earth. I think that the only thing that will change my mind would be if after death we do meet up and I admit my error.

    Regarding scientology, I do believe that the religion was founded with good intentions and that it continues to do good work. I wonder, though, just how pervasive the well publicized abuses are: are they pretty common, or are they rare instances that have been blown out of proportion? I know that devout believers in any religion (including Christianity and Judaism) can justify almost anything they want to if they feel it serves their faith.

    You and I have gone back and forth on mainstream medicine vs. "alternative" treatments. You are living proof that there is value to the alternatives, and I sincerely hope that you continue to be living proof for many, many years. When my wife was being treated for cancer and we asked the oncologist about some of the alternative treatments, he said that the drugs that he was using all had a proven track record while the other treatments had only anecdotal success. He was a kind and compassionate man and I have no doubt in the world that he would have treated his own wife the same way he treated mine. Even though the treatments were in the end unsuccessful, I have no regrets and believe that she received the best treatment available at the time. I think that this discussion of an "alternative" religion is analagous to that one. I'm still a "mainstream" kind of guy and have a tough time buying conspiracy theories. Even though you make a compelling argument, I continue to have doubts. I don't know if your being an insider makes your points more or less credible, but I do respect you and as a result of our discussion find myself less sure of my initial impression of scientology.

    And thank you for accepting my apology.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

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