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Thread: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

  1. #10
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    Quote Originally Posted by kr1963 View Post
    Got it. It is still a prejudice which I can tell from your statement is about a subject you know absolutely nothing about other than what you have been told by the media. This is the exact sort of thinking that eventually got Germans to cart away the Jews: one group of people actually are better than another or one group's thoughts/ideas/philosophies have value while another don't.
    If prejudice is borne of ignorance, then maybe I'm guilty; but unless everything I've read about scientology is completely off base, I stand by my assessment. All belief systems are not created equal.

    Quote Originally Posted by kr1963 View Post
    The IRS btw recognized my faith as a religion.
    Since when do you give any value to government recognition of anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by kr1963 View Post
    It has in its practice helped save my life, saved the life of my grandfather, gotten countless people off of drugs (myself included), rehabilitated criminals, made people literate, helped made many folks very successful in life, gotten rid of countless physical aliments, fought for human rights & exposed the mental health abuses & crimes.
    As you may know, I don't believe in any religion, but I recognize that some faiths, no matter how flawed or irrational, help many people deal with difficult situations. As John Lennon said, "Whatever gets you through the night." I also believe that all told, religion does more harm than good. As Mr. Lennon also said, "Imagine . . . no religion."

    Quote Originally Posted by kr1963 View Post
    Also some Jews hold the idea that you cannot convert to Judaism, that it is a RACE thing to them. You are born into it or not. So the analogy holds.
    I don't care what other people say. My categorization of scientology has NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE. You can call them racists, but don't call me one.
    Last edited by Spider; 11-27-2012 at 07:59 PM.
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  2. #11
    Olympic Champ r.payton@att.net's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    Fick L.Ron Hubbard.
    You know, I think I would rather be a man than a god . We don't need anyone to believe in us. We just keep going anyhow. It's what we do.

  3. #12

    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    "Also some Jews hold the idea that you cannot convert to Judaism, that it is a RACE thing to them. You are born into it or not. So the analogy holds."

    Analogy to what? You are born into scientology? You are a scientologist? If so, that explains your unbalanced reaction--way too defensive.

    Religions become a problem when they become the foundational core of political leadership. Especially if those leaders believe what is preached and decide to tolerate no opposing views. If the Pat Robertsons of the world, THAT ilk, were to gain control of this country for an extended period, I'd be a dead man. Ditto the Sharians lawyers.

    No clue about scientologists. Perhaps they are like the Amish, whom I've never felt threatened by.

    That said, I dislike the choice of Tom Cruise to play Jack Reacher. Wrong image, scientology or not.

    I'd prefer an image like Ken Wahl. And there are others.
    DSCH: a Soviet artist's reply to unjust criticism.

  4. #13
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    If prejudice is borne of ignorance, then maybe I'm guilty; but unless everything I've read about Scientology is completely off base, I stand by my assessment. All belief systems are not created equal.
    Well think about a person who passes judgement upon a person or a group by only hearing one side of the story. & then that person claims to be JUST? I think most people would say that they were unjust, insincere & to some degree hypocritical.

    In 1992, Marvin Simkin wrote in Los Angeles Times, Democracy is not freedom. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch. Freedom comes from the recognition of certain rights which may not be taken, not even by a 99% vote.

    I gave you a series of attributes & actions of my group. Most people would think that those were admirable attributes & actions. It might cause a person to investigate the topic for themselves. But I see that you are still resigned to take the media's word as expert on my religion.

    I am glad I still live in a world where a minority group can still have rights despite another group's attempts to have other people think otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    Since when do you give any value to government recognition of anything?
    When it creates an agreement that Scientology is indeed a religion & is tax exempt as are my donations to it, then it means a great deal to me as this means a suppressive agency like the IRS can't go around trying to shut up people it doesn't like by taxing & fining them to death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    As you may know, I don't believe in any religion, but I recognize that some faiths, no matter how flawed or irrational, help many people deal with difficult situations. As John Lennon said, "Whatever gets you through the night." I also believe that all told, religion does more harm than good. As Mr. Lennon also said, "Imagine . . . no religion."
    If you talking about a religion that hundreds of years ago tortured other "infidels" to death b/c they did not belief in their faith then I would certainly agree with you. But at least religions hold to the idea that we are spiritual beings & are not bodies. This is the far greater truth people need to know. Most religions have also giving people a moral code from which to operate without which we might still be living as animals. Though I will agree that history has shown that some religions like any other group have gotten into power & abused their power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    I don't care what other people say. My categorization of Scientology has NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE. You can call them racists, but don't call me one.
    Prejudice is Prejudice Spider. For some attacking a religion is tantamount to racism. Look at anyone at many Jews cast around the phrase "anti-Semite". Bigotry & Racism all fall into the same category.

    You have to ask yourself that if you open the door to demeaning any minority, where does it start & where does it end. Who is the AUTHORITY to decide what group deserves scorn & what one deserves praise? You? The media? The government?

    I am glad you have the wise sense to discern upon what groups should be validated & what groups should be looked down upon based upon information solely gathered from the media.

    In my book it should NEVER start b/c that road leads down a road that history has shown is full of injustice, persecution & death.

    And again I have no problem with anyone saying Cruise was miscast as Reacher but including his religion in the argument is really an added & inapplicable datum. It has nothing to do with it & that is a sort of insanity when a person throws in data that has nothing to do with an argument.

  5. #14
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    KR, first of all, prejudice and racism are not the same thing. Racism is a form of prejudice, but not all prejudice is racism. Many of us are prejudiced about many things having nothing to do with race. You can call me prejudiced regarding scientology, but I will not accept the label of a racist.

    Secondly, yes I base my opinion on what I have read and seen in the media, that biased, hateful, anti-scientology media. Are all the reported abuses lies? Should I take your claims as more valid because you are an independent source with no agenda? I gather evidence and draw conclusions. When more evidence becomes available, I rethink my conclusions. For now, I believe what I believe.

    Thirdly, I don't think being a scientologist makes Cruise unfit to play Jack Reacher. I mentionned it just to be a wise guy, and yes, I meant it in an unflattering way. I am sorry that I insulted you and in hindsight it was probably a stupid thing to say, but my opinilon of scientology stands until I have credible evidence which will change it.
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  6. #15
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    Quote Originally Posted by LkwdSteve View Post
    "Also some Jews hold the idea that you cannot convert to Judaism, that it is a RACE thing to them. You are born into it or not. So the analogy holds."

    Analogy to what? You are born into scientology? You are a scientologist? If so, that explains your unbalanced reaction--way too defensive.
    Very easy to say when you are on the other side of the argument.

    In 1993 the Helsinki Commission issued a report entitled “Human Rights and Democratization in Unified Germany” in which it noted: “It seems clear that Germany’s course of action reflects the determination to marginalize or eradicate groups perceived as extremist or threatening to the established order.”

    In 1993, 94 & 95, the United States State Department Human Rights Report reproached Germany for persecution against Scientologists. The report criticizes Germany’s discriminatory treatment of Scientologists, stating such instances include “both social and government-condoned harassment."

    In 1994 & 95 United Nations reports cited Germany for its religious intolerance against Scientologists.

    The 1995 State Department Human Rights Report notes that:


    • “major German political parties exclude Scientologists from membership.”
    • “business firms whose owners or executives belong to the Church of Scientology may face boycotts and discrimination, sometimes with governmental approval.”
    • “artists have been prevented from performing or displaying their works because of their Scientology membership.”
    • “public criticism of Scientologists by leading political figures increased during the year, with one Cabinet member [Federal Labor Minister, Norbert Bluem] publicly stating that Scientologists were unfit to serve as teachers, police officers, or professors.”


    The report noted that “Scientologists continued to take such grievances to court, and the courts have frequently ruled in their favor.”


    Some of those people under attack are my friends. I know the hell they went though. I know where opening the door to the derogatory treatment of ANY minority leads.
    "Way too defensive?" Maybe just ripping prejudice out by the roots before it can actually take root.

    Quote Originally Posted by LkwdSteve View Post
    Religions become a problem when they become the foundational core of political leadership. Especially if those leaders believe what is preached and decide to tolerate no opposing views. If the Pat Robertsons of the world, THAT ilk, were to gain control of this country for an extended period, I'd be a dead man. Ditto the Sharians lawyers.
    I might agree with you there. This entire country was founded upon creating a place where anyone who obeyed the law would have rights. Of course you always have the case where Criminal get into power & then honest people are attacked.

    Quote Originally Posted by LkwdSteve View Post
    No clue about scientologists. Perhaps they are like the Amish, whom I've never felt threatened by.

    That said, I dislike the choice of Tom Cruise to play Jack Reacher. Wrong image, scientology or not.

    I'd prefer an image like Ken Wahl. And there are others.
    I have no problem with not liking Cruise as the choice. That argument goes on all the time in Hollywood. Just thought, as I said in my last post, that bringing religion into the argument had nothing to do with it. That is the simplicity of my comments.

  7. #16
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    KR, first of all, prejudice and racism are not the same thing. Racism is a form of prejudice, but not all prejudice is racism. Many of us are prejudiced about many things having nothing to do with race. You can call me prejudiced regarding Scientology, but I will not accept the label of a racist.

    Secondly, yes I base my opinion on what I have read and seen in the media, that biased, hateful, anti-Scientology media. Are all the reported abuses lies? Should I take your claims as more valid because you are an independent source with no agenda? I gather evidence and draw conclusions. When more evidence becomes available, I rethink my conclusions. For now, I believe what I believe.

    Thirdly, I don't think being a Scientologist makes Cruise unfit to play Jack Reacher. I mentioned it just to be a wise guy, and yes, I meant it in an unflattering way. I am sorry that I insulted you and in hindsight it was probably a stupid thing to say, but my opinion of scientology stands until I have credible evidence which will change it.
    Sorry if you took what I said as trying to label you a racist. I was just pointing out that it is still a prejudice & that in some instances when a person is prejudice in that FASHION (racism) that person gets attacked for being a racist. But being at other times the prejudice is "acceptable". To me they are never acceptable. To me you are engaging in a "acceptable prejudice". I was not calling you a racist.

    My other point was simply that in Judaism, if you attack the religion some Jews also consider that you are attacking their race, that was all.

    If you draw your conclusions yet have never read a Scientology book
    nor read about the good deeds of my fellow parishioners
    then all I can say is that your information upon which you draw your conclusion is incomplete.
    Therefore I submit the following:

    A video the church created to teach people about Human Rights:
    Universal Declaration of Human Rights Campaign: What are Human Rights?

    A video with interviews with Disaster relief workers talking about
    the Church's volunteer ministers helping them out
    (like 9/11, the London 7/7 bombings & Hurricane Katrina):
    Volunteer Ministers: Disaster Response

    And maybe you have heard what the media thinks we believe
    but I will give something basic that anyone I think can agree upon:
    The Creed of the Church of Scientology

    Again I dont care if you think Cruise was horribly miscast.
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
    And apology accepted.

  8. #17
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    I have no doubt that scientologists do good deeds, and (as I said earlier) it helps many people get through tough times. Still, for my opinion of scientology to change, I would have to see a defense of it and a refutation of the media accusations from a credible source other than scientologists.
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  9. #18

    Default Re: TOM CRUISE as JACK REACHER

    "Very easy to say when you are on the other side of the argument."

    Hmmm. You are born as jewish. You are trained to be an "ologist" (of any sort). LIke I said I don't see the analogy.

    Racism, as a modern term, has a (pseudo) scientific basis, eugenics, and was a result of an urgent demand by significant groups of white people for some kind of plausible reason to ignore their religious trainings, and drastically descriminate against blacks. Disdain for "ologists", of one sort or another, isn't racism. True rasicm has existed forever, under other names, but has always targeted types of people, NOT types of beliefs.

    That's not to say racism is the root of all evil. It's not. It is the root of plenty, but not all problems. "Us vs. them" is often enough religious. For example, shia muslim vs. sunni muslim has been an ongoing cold war, by now bordering on "warm", with Syria as the latest battlefield. Your analogy works if broadened to incorporate beliefs over and above looks or race.

    We are on opposite sides of arguments presented here, if you 1) disagree on the movie's casting choice for the main character, or if you 2) disagree on the definition of rasicsm.

    No huge deal either way.


    Close association with Scientology makes one sensitive to negative comments. Understandable. It's been an educational thread for a few reasons.
    DSCH: a Soviet artist's reply to unjust criticism.

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