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Thread: Sanderson does not like National Duals

  1. #55
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by FloggingSully View Post
    The plan is to continue awarding a team trophy at the individual national championships. The only difference is that the team trophy will be awarded by the NWCA instead of the NCAA (the NCAA will still be awarding the individual championshps)
    Are these both the same trophy, which goes to the winner of the National Duals? If so will they still keep a team score at the NCAA's? Also if so, will they award a trophy for the non-national championship team that wins this tournament? Will wrestling no longer have an NCAA National Champion Team (is there any other NCAA sanctioned sport that can make this claim?)? And at the conclusion of the National Duals, the winning team has to wait for the NCAA's to get it's trophy? Not confusing at all, and sure to elevate the sport and recruit new fans.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  2. #56

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    Are these both the same trophy, which goes to the winner of the National Duals? If so will they still keep a team score at the NCAA's? Also if so, will they award a trophy for the non-national championship team that wins this tournament? Will wrestling no longer have an NCAA National Champion Team (is there any other NCAA sanctioned sport that can make this claim?)? And at the conclusion of the National Duals, the winning team has to wait for the NCAA's to get it's trophy? Not confusing at all, and sure to elevate the sport and recruit new fans.
    Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but my undersetanding is that if the change is approved, the NCAA team champion will be the winner of the National Duals. Its trophy will be the ONLY NCAA team championship trophy. There will still be a tabulation of team standings at the individual tournament, and a NWCA team title (and trophy) will be awarded--but it will NOT be the NCAA team title. NCAA individual titles WILL be awarded at the individual tournament as always.

  3. #57

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    Are these both the same trophy, which goes to the winner of the National Duals?
    2 trophies, one from the NCAA (awarded at the dual championships) and one from the NWCA awarded at the NCAA individual championships.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    If so will they still keep a team score at the NCAA's? Also if so, will they award a trophy for the non-national championship team that wins this tournament?
    Team scores will continue to be kept at the NCAA individual tournament, the NCAA has agreed to continue keeping the team score. Team scores will be announced during the tournament as they are now. At the conclusion of the individual tournament the NWCA will award a trophy to the team that wins the tournament.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    Will wrestling no longer have an NCAA National Champion Team
    The NCAA will continue to crown a national team champion, the difference is that the team champion will now be crowned at the team championships (national duals).

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    (is there any other NCAA sanctioned sport that can make this claim?)?
    The NCAA doesn't crown a football champion in division 1 (or whatever you call the highest division in football now)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    And at the conclusion of the National Duals, the winning team has to wait for the NCAA's to get it's trophy?
    They'll probably have to wait the 10 minutes or so that it takes to get everyone on the mat and bring the trophy out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    Not confusing at all, and sure to elevate the sport and recruit new fans.
    Figuring out who wins a dual meet is a lot less confusing for casual fans (who we need to attract) than figuring out tournament scoring. And doubling TV exposure for the sport is going to have a much bigger influence on casual and new fans than who or when a team trophy get's handed out (does the current ESPN coverage even show the trophy being awarded?)
    There's no such thing as a pretty good aligator wrestler.

  4. #58
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    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by TomWright25 View Post
    Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but my undersetanding is that if the change is approved, the NCAA team champion will be the winner of the National Duals. Its trophy will be the ONLY NCAA team championship trophy. There will still be a tabulation of team standings at the individual tournament, and a NWCA team title (and trophy) will be awarded--but it will NOT be the NCAA team title. NCAA individual titles WILL be awarded at the individual tournament as always.
    Okay, Tom, so if you are correct, and you usually are, it would go like this:

    - The NCAA will award the NCAA National Championship Trophy to the winners of the National Duals, and the NWCA will award it's own trophy to the winning team of the NCAA Tournament -a reversal (2 points, please) of how it is now. I can't imagine the jubilation that will accompany the winning of the NWCA trophy.

    - Wrestlers at the NCAA Tournament compete for individual titles, but have little incentive to score bonus points because the team National Championship has already been decided.

    - The name of the NCAA Wrestling Championships will become the NCAA Individual Wrestling Championships, and the team trophy will become The NWCA Individual Wrestling Tournament (But Not National Championship) Team Trophy?

    Forgoing the sarcasm for a moment, I will simply say that I think that the major result of this change would be to make the NCAA Tournament, the culmination of the college wrestling season, much less significant and exciting, and it would be bad for wrestling. The National Duals can still be an important event, but it should not replace the NCAA Tournament as the determinant of the National Championship Team. I'm done for now, and I believe I hear a collective sigh of relief.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  5. #59
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    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    And at the conclusion of the National Duals, the winning team has to wait for the NCAA's to get it's trophy?

    Quote Originally Posted by FloggingSully View Post
    They'll probably have to wait the 10 minutes or so that it takes to get everyone on the mat and bring the trophy out.
    I misunderstood and thought that the trophy would be awarded at the NCAA's.



    Quote Originally Posted by FloggingSully View Post
    Figuring out who wins a dual meet is a lot less confusing for casual fans (who we need to attract) than figuring out tournament scoring. And doubling TV exposure for the sport is going to have a much bigger influence on casual and new fans than who or when a team trophy get's handed out (does the current ESPN coverage even show the trophy being awarded?)
    The team scores during the finals of the NCAA's are easily calculated match by match, and the announcers keep the fans informed as to who has to do what to affect the team standings. When it's a close race, each finals match involving a team contender becomes that much more exciting.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  6. #60
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    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    . . . and another thing (sorry, I guess I wasn't done): would adding another major wrestling event on ESPN really attract new fans? Does the current extensive, prime time coverage of the NCAA finals attract new fans? What would be the allure of another major event? Would the channel surfer hit on wrestling and become hooked? If the argument for change is that a dual meet format is a better way to determine the team champion, then that's a philosophical discussion, but I don't buy the argument that it will increase the sport's popularity, and that is a bad reason for a very major change.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  7. #61

    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    - Wrestlers at the NCAA Tournament compete for individual titles, but have little incentive to score bonus points because the team National Championship has already been decided.
    The vast majority of wrestlers at the national championships are on teams with no chance of winning a national title, they still seem to find incentive to score lots of points, do they not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    I will simply say that I think that the major result of this change would be to make the NCAA Tournament, the culmination of the college wrestling season, much less significant and exciting
    I agree that with these changes, the individual tournament will be less significant and/or exciting to some people. The type of people who will be affected by this are the one's who talk about wrestling on message boards 3 months before the season starts and follow the team race closely. These people are a small minority of the potential audiene for college wrestling. These people will also get a second exciting national championships to follow and discuss online and watch either in person or on TV.

    Spider, of the kids you coach, how many do you think could have told you the top 3 teams at the end of Thursday or Friday of last year's NCAA championships? Do you think any of them would stop watching the individual championships if the organization awarding the trophy changed? How many of them do you think would watch the dual final on ESPN?
    There's no such thing as a pretty good aligator wrestler.

  8. #62
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    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Quote Originally Posted by FloggingSully View Post
    The vast majority of wrestlers at the national championships are on teams with no chance of winning a national title, they still seem to find incentive to score lots of points, do they not?


    I agree that with these changes, the individual tournament will be less significant and/or exciting to some people. The type of people who will be affected by this are the one's who talk about wrestling on message boards 3 months before the season starts and follow the team race closely. These people are a small minority of the potential audiene for college wrestling. These people will also get a second exciting national championships to follow and discuss online and watch either in person or on TV.

    Spider, of the kids you coach, how many do you think could have told you the top 3 teams at the end of Thursday or Friday of last year's NCAA championships? Do you think any of them would stop watching the individual championships if the organization awarding the trophy changed? How many of them do you think would watch the dual final on ESPN?
    The arguments I'm hearing are that major changes such as this proposal will keep wrestling from dying, rejuvenate interest, recruit new fans, etc. etc. I just don't think that that will happen. More exposure isn't the problem. People look at it, see two sweaty guys rolling around on the mat, and change the channel, probably to a UFC match. The way to increase the fan base is to create programs at all levels, get parents involved, and friends and family members will follow. I believe that amateur wrestling will never become a major spectator sport. The vast majority of it's followers will always be wrestlers, ex-wrestlers, and people who are close to them. I hate to see such a major change happen for the wrong reason. Again, if it is a fairer system for the wrestlers, that's another argument.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  9. #63
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    Default Re: Sanderson does not like National Duals

    Addendum to previous post: we usually have the extended family over for dinner on Sundays. It's very casual with lots of beer. They all love NASCAR (I don't). One time, when they showed up, I was watching a wrestling match on tv that I had copied. I told them that I was leaving it on because there wasn't an auto race that day. They asked me to explain what was happening, which of course I did, so they had a rudimentary understanding of the scoring. They watched it, probably out of courtesy to me, but I didn't recruit any new fans. I think that this is typical of the uninitiated, and I don't think more wrestling on tv is the answer.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

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