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Thread: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

  1. #28

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by FloggingSully View Post
    I don't remember hearing or reading about catholic's outcry that their insurance must cover birth control in 20-something states that currently require it to before now either...
    Check again, sir. Those states don't mandate it to the church. Even Chris Matthews pointed that out.
    Currently, 28 states have laws requiring contraceptive coverage as part of health plans. According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, 20 of those states offer some type of exemption, a list including Arizona, New York, Maryland, Missouri and California.
    Whether exemptions exist or not, Catholic groups in all 28 states can avoid the contraceptive mandate in one of three ways, says the U.S. bishops’ conference. These include self-insuring prescription drug coverage, dropping that coverage completely or opting into a federal law that preempts any state mandates. Critics say the narrowness of the recent federal ruling would block religious groups from taking any of these avenues.
    Last edited by quinn14; 02-14-2012 at 02:19 PM.

  2. #29

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    Check again, sir. Those states don't mandate it to the church. Even Chris Matthews pointed that out.
    At least some of those states (i.e. New Hampshire) have no religious exemptions.
    There's no such thing as a pretty good aligator wrestler.

  3. #30
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    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYGriffin View Post
    nyg
    They would close and have closed. Quinn is right women have ample access to birth control and other procedures through groups like planned parent hood. I guess the other issue we would disagree on is that I dont beleive that health care is a right.

    Also tell me about a time in the last 30 years someone was forced to serve in the military, you cant because it doenst happen. Also I am against war but when it comes down to it I like the military so when war does happen and it will because it always has, I have someone to protect me.

    Again why is this a violation of individual rights, when the individual can make a choice to get the care they need elswhere.

  4. #31

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    Griffin, you mentioned Margret Sanger when you said this: These women's rights (Margaret Sanger and many others) advocates argued the thing that most restricted women's freedom was lack of access to biological knowledge and common contraceptive technology.

    I am assuming that you agree with her. Hillary Clinton also said she was a great woman. Do you really know about her? Do you know that the reason she started Planned Parenthood was to wipe out the black race and stop the multiplication of the unfit? Here is a link followed by some quotes from it. Check it out for yourself.

    The Negro Project and Margaret Sanger

    Sanger's early writings clearly reflected Malthus' influence. She writes:
    Organized charity itself is the symptom of a malignant social disease. Those vast, complex, interrelated organizations aiming to control and to diminish the spread of misery and destitution and all the menacing evils that spring out of this sinisterly fertile soil, are the surest sign that our civilization has bred, is breeding and perpetuating constantly increasing numbers of defectives, delinquents and dependents.Here is another "great" quote from her:

    In another passage, she decries the burden of “human waste” on society:
    It [charity] encourages the healthier and more normal sections of the world to shoulder the burden of unthinking and indiscriminate fecundity of others; which brings with it, as I think the reader must agree, a dead weight of human waste. Instead of decreasing and aiming to eliminate the stocks that are most detrimental to the future of the race and the world, it tends to render them to a menacing degree dominant [emphasis added].

    This is the person you choose to use in a debate about freedom?I hope you don't agree that the weak and blacks should just be killed. Sanger does.
    Oh, believe me I know Sanger is a complicated individual and her association with Eugenics is not breaking news. However, Ideas are independent of the characters that speak them, and her position on access to contraception as a form of liberation for women is the idea I was citing. There are others- Victoria Woodhull and Olympe des Gouges for example make similar arguments, but Sanger has the longest literature out there and people are most familiar with her.

    However, on this particular point of tying freedom to economic independence, she is very much in the mainstream of a particular current of thought in American politics. This is an idea that is at the heart of some of the most mainstream figures, and 3 perhaps all 4 of those who appear on Mount Rushmore.

    Nonetheless, your own example that a former first lady, former Senator and current Sec'y of State will still find value in what she says actually proves my point- I think you underestimate why some people are as adamant, self-righteous, and uncompromising about access to reproductive healthcare, as the church appears to be over indirect support of it through common health insurance. Clinton does not believe she is a great woman because of her views on eugenics, but on her contributions to women's status and economic independence through women seizing control of their own reproductive capacities, instead of letting patriarchal institutions like the church and government control those policies, knowledge, and technology.

    To the best of my knowledge, no Sec'y of State has cited Milton Blake as a great man.

  5. #32

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    I just edited my post because I knew you were going to say that. Check out the post above.

    Dang, you guys are quick. This post was for Sully and the state mandate.

  6. #33

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    So, Griffin. Was Hitler great because of the infrastructure he built in Germany? Does doing something to initially help supercede the fact that your major goal is to wipe out another group of people? I am confused by your separation of ideas. She starts planned parenthood for the sole purpose of killing off blacks and the weak, yet you focus on the fact that it gives women some sort of right. Wow!

  7. #34

    Women Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    lol, I do not know what I was thinking when I name dropped Sanger. I knew that would derail the whole thing.

    However, I must admit to one thing. As a working class father with a daughter, I do subscribe to Sanger's ideas about full knowledge and uncompromising personal control of your reproductive capacities is absolutely paramount for a young women's economic success and independence in the modern world.

    I just happen to be anti-eugenics and anti-abortion as well.

    A man in the sky watching you is not the only reason for abstinence

  8. #35

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    So, Griffin. Was Hitler great because of the infrastructure he built in Germany? Does doing something to initially help supercede the fact that your major goal is to wipe out another group of people? I am confused by your separation of ideas. She starts planned parenthood for the sole purpose of killing off blacks and the weak, yet you focus on the fact that it gives women some sort of right. Wow!
    Kind of a stretch don't you think?

    Do we ignore the Declaration of Independence because Jefferson owned slaves?
    Do we ignore Truman, Harding and Robert Byrd because he joined the KKK?
    Should I take my Volkswagen bug to junkyard because it developed under Nazi German leadership?
    Should we not have used Einstein's ideas about fission because he was educated in a system that created a much more brutal regime of eugenics than even Sanger?

    Ideas can be used and transformed and elaborated on in very creative ways. Locke spawned both Jefferson and Marx. social Darwinism spawned both modern Republicanism and Nazism. Listening to ideas is not a bad thing, employing them gets a little tricky.

  9. #36

    Default Re: A few thoughts about freedom of religion and health insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYGriffin View Post
    full knowledge and uncompromising personal control of your reproductive capacities is absolutely paramount for a young women's economic success and independence in the modern world.

    I just happen to be anti-eugenics and anti-abortion as well.

    A man in the sky watching you is not the only reason for abstinence
    I have a 24yr old daughter and made darn sure she had full knowledge and personal control of her reproductive capacities. That knowledge included birth control and the fact that if she gets pregnant that the guy can leave. It also included adoption options and abstinence. I like to think that this knowledge helped her make the decisions she did and she is still not ready to have a baby, so she still uses birth control. She's not rich. Yet, birth control is so cheap she can afford it and so can these morons who say that they finally have access to it. Anyone with a job can afford condoms and this mandate is for those with jobs. Like I said, it's a made up problem.

    Oh, and God is not in the sky. He is in your heart.

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