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Thread: Libya almost proves mt theory

  1. #19
    Olympic Champ r.payton@att.net's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya almost proves mt theory

    <cite class="vcard"> By ROBERT BURNS and ERICA WERNER, Associated Press Robert Burns And Erica Werner, Associated Press </cite> ? <abbr title="2011-03-24T16:03:38-0700" class="recenttimedate">1 hr 11 mins ago</abbr>
    WASHINGTON ? U.S. warplanes will keep flying strike missions over Libya even after the U.S. relinquishes the lead command role to NATO as early as this weekend in the fight against Moammar Gadhafi's forces, the Pentagon indicated Thursday.


    SO much for DAYS !!

  2. #20
    Olympic Champ r.payton@att.net's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya almost proves mt theory

    Again you are getting ver conspiracy theorist on us. You are saying that the only reason we went into the first Gulf war was because the Bush family had a major investment in the oil fields of Kuwait. Now how is it that you know that and yet he was never brought up on charges and the left leaning news did not report it, to the best of my knowledge. Did the Dems have no idea about this or are they a part of the act? I dont remember in this Iraq war or the last that America ever reaped any benefit from the oil or was ever repaid for the military efforts we put forth.

    Perhaps the press did not report on the Bush connection for the same reasons Prescott Bush was never charged with treason while collaborating with the NAZIS ? Bush and Rockefeller provided the NAZIS with Petrol during WW II-a direct violation of the neutrality act -as for Saddham killing his own people ? so what ? We supported Stalin in WWII and we KNEW he had killed over 25 million of his own people in the Gulags-the song remains the same....

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    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya almost proves mt theory

    Quote Originally Posted by r.payton@att.net View Post
    Again you are getting ver conspiracy theorist on us. You are saying that the only reason we went into the first Gulf war was because the Bush family had a major investment in the oil fields of Kuwait. Now how is it that you know that and yet he was never brought up on charges and the left leaning news did not report it, to the best of my knowledge. Did the Dems have no idea about this or are they a part of the act? I dont remember in this Iraq war or the last that America ever reaped any benefit from the oil or was ever repaid for the military efforts we put forth.

    Perhaps the press did not report on the Bush connection for the same reasons Prescott Bush was never charged with treason while collaborating with the NAZIS ? Bush and Rockefeller provided the NAZIS with Petrol during WW II-a direct violation of the neutrality act -as for Saddham killing his own people ? so what ? We supported Stalin in WWII and we KNEW he had killed over 25 million of his own people in the Gulags-the song remains the same....
    I understand what you are saying. Were Bush and Rockefeler doing this and the American government and news media knowing about it, if so I assume tehy would have reported it and the time and the backlash would have been great. I dont doubt that some shady things have happened I just dont get bogged down in the conspiracy, I would have assumed that if Bush did all of that during the Gulf war their would have been a major push back by the liberal media.

  4. #22
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Sunny Day! Re: Libya almost proves mt theory

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    He was a horrible dictator before and after Kuwait, he murdered his own people is great numbers, there is nothing hypocritical about that.

    Again you are getting ver conspiracy theorist on us
    . You are saying that the only reason we went into the first Gulf war was because the Bush family had a major investment in the oil fields of Kuwait. Now how is it that you know that and yet he was never brought up on charges and the left leaning news did not report it, to the best of my knowledge. Did the Dems have no idea about this or are they a part of the act? I dont remember in this Iraq war or the last that America ever reaped any benefit from the oil or was ever repaid for the military efforts we put forth.

    As to Tunisia and Egypt, they had governemtns that were willing to give in and the military would not fire on its own people. In Libya Gadhafi will not give up and the military is backing him. Now I agree with you that we should not get involved, if we are the main force. I believe we can provide support for the UN and our allies in this conflict. We need to get finished with the other two wars.
    Ugly, How can you not do a little research & not know that the only reason that Hussein was in power in the first place was that the US Government put him there. He murdered people in Iran in the 1980s with "OUR" blessing. He did things to his own people & it was ok a long time ago because he kept the flow of oil going to the US. When he kept the oil for himself the US did things to try & gain control of the scene. When that failed they tried to burden the Iraqi government with loans & when that failed they figured out a way to invade Iraq with everyone else's approval.

    Here's the story, you call conspiracy theory, I wrote awhile back:

    After WWI & the fall of the Ottoman Empire the Turkish Petroleum Company (TPC) was in shambles. Countries/companies were fighting over who should get control over it & the regions it controlled which included the territory that would become known as Iraq. Oil was discovered in Iraq in 1927. The San Remo agreement mean that a conglomeration of companies which included BP & Standard Oil (The Rockefellers) would now run the TPC in the old Ottoman empire. everywhere that is BUT KUWAIT.

    The TPC actively & successfully prevented the Iraqi government in investing in TPC & after the Kirkuk oil fields were discovered, one of the biggest oil fields in the world. Since most of the production was now coming from "Iraq" the TPC was renamed the Iraqi Petroleum Comapny (IPC). And for 30 years the pro-west government installed basically by the Brits sent not only all the oil but the money as well to the UK, Europe & USA.

    By the late 1940s IPC had developed outside of Iraq & was in 12 different countries including Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Abu Dhabi, Yemen & Oman. They had grown very powerful very powerful indeed.

    In 1958 the pro-west Iraqi government was overthrown by Iraqi General Abd al-Karim Qasim. In 1959 a CIA backed coup attempt to overthrown Qasim, was lead the Baath party & Saddam Hussein but was stopped. Later, Bush Sr ws the Principal of the Zapata Offshore Oil Company which secured the very 1st Oil well drilling in Kuwait in 1961. (Zapata in a later merger would become the Z in the PennZoil Corp).

    This deal in Kuwait for Zapata, was brokered by Bill Quasha who was the CIA lawyer for handling the Nugan Hand Bank in Australia, (which attempted to destabilize the Australian Labor Party for preventing foreign oil exploration there) & he has extensive holdings in a Swiss company owned by the South African Rupert's of the Apartheid infamy. Nice people.

    The British had just left & this opened the doors for USA business interests to come in. However, Iraq was still in control of Kuwait & wanted the sea ports for their own. Qasim considered still that Kuwait was Iraqi territory which it was under the British control of the region up until 1921.

    In 1963 Qasim was finally overthrown much like Mossadeqh was in Iran, (except Mossadegh is under house arrest while Qasim is executed) by General Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr, (who immediately recognizes Kuwait as a separate country...um WHAT? Iraqis don't do that!) & in turn Hussein, starting as the Intell Chief & then as al-Bakr's VP, came to power in 1968 with the backing from the CIA again.

    This happened despite Hussein's Socialist political leanings & more because he was anti-Shi'ite. However in 1972 Hussein took over all petroleum interests much to the chagrin of the US Government & business interests. The IPC was now in Iraqi hands & the money was going to the Iraqi people. HOWEVER Kuwait was not under the IPC's control as it had been originally when the company was the TPC.

    So with the IPC taking over control of the not only Iraqi oil resources but also much of the Middle East the US tried to win over Hussein with trade deals & technology. They were "worried" about Iran & about Hussein's oil deal with the Soviets. They also wanted to get back the IPC & the Kirkuk oil fields.

    At the US urging the Kuwaitis loaned Iraq $14 BILLION in the early 1980s, to fight the Iranian border war. When Kuwait later demanded repayment Iraq tried to get oil prices to increase. The US backed Kuwaitis fought this by flooding the market with oil & keeping the price down. Hussein looked at that as the act of an enemy as it impeded Iraq's ability to pay back the loan & it helped out their US friends who wanted Kuwait to give them the loan in the 1st place. It was also found that the Kuwaiti based oil drills were engaged in "Slant drilling." Which from we all know comes the phrase I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE! It is basically THEFT.

    What people don't know in the US about Hussein is that he used that money to create FREE public education AND created a LITERACY program. He also help to create a socialized medicine system there as well. Hussein also helped to create a westernized Judicial system & was the only one of the Gulf States that didn't have a legal system based upon Islamic law. Gee, isnt that what the US government wanted? (Am I an apologist No simply pointing out that no one is completely evil & no one is completely a saint. As I said, Hussein did bad things & "we" knew & supported it).

    No, not really. They wanted the IPC back.

    The American people have had to be convinced that Hussein was a completely horrible & evil man in order to back the war against him. They were never told that he suppressed the Kurds, (NATO member Turkey has suppressed their Kurdish minority as well & IF the Iraqis didn't squash theirs too it might destabilize Turkey...true State department logic) & committed biological warfare against Iran with the US government's backing. The technology was shipped by US & UK businesses with the blessing of the US State department. The message is "Do what ever you want just keep sending us oil."

    In addition, the DC based PR firm Hill & Knowlton was hired for $10.7 million by the Kuwaiti government, to devise a campaign to win American support for the war. The babies in the incubator story was an invented one to get Americans outraged over Hussein invading Kuwait. Yes the freedom loving Kuwaitis who only a few weeks before the invasion, according to Amnesty International accused the Kuwaiti government of jailing dozens of dissidents and torturing them without trial.

    Even the Christian Science Monitor reported that the "star witness" to these atrocities was the daughter of Kuwait's ambassador to the United States, and actually hadn't seen the "atrocities" she described take place.

    And when Hussein tried in his own estimation to fight for the country's sovereignty & get out from underneath a US sanctioned war with Iran & loan they used it to try & squeeze Hussein into giving up Iraq's oil. Then when he protested them stealing they called it invasion. And the we had GWI & then 9/11 as a pre-cursor to invade Iraq & have GWII. The rest is history & we are still over there dying not for defending the US but to protect the corporate interests of a handful of men.

    Not mentioned by the media is the fact that The Kuwait-American Company (KuwAm) has infused cash into more then one Bush family owned enterprise over the years. Mishal al-Sabah, a member of the Kuwaiti royal family is on the board of many Bush investments. So BINGO, Bush Sr & Jr had a REASON to protect their investments & friends from Hussein.

    AND Now the IPC is a shell of what Hussein had. It is now the Abu Dhabi Petroleum Company which is owned by Royal Dutch Shell, BP & Mobil-Exxon (Standard Oil). Also doing great business in Iraq are Bechtel, (2 Billion in reconstruction contracts) Haliburton, Howe-Baker & Pullman-Kellogg. Btw Dick Cheney & Halliburton sold Hussein over $20 million in equipment in 1998. Yea the VP did a deal with the enemy.

    If the US was really interested in "exporting democracy" then they would have pulled the plug on any number of feudal state monarchies in the Gulf Region: Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE or Oman or KUWAIT. They play ball so the US leaves them alone. Hussein didn't.

    As I said, the Bush family has continued long standing ties with the Kuwaiti elite families. Since Kuwait was a part of Iraq every Iraqi leader has talked about "re-uniting Kuwait with Iraq." Up into 1990 The Bush Administration let Saddam think that line of thinking was ok. They then used his invasion as a reason to go grab back the IPC & Kirkuk fields.

    And while freeing Libya from Qaddafi sounds like a great humanitarian cause, the US business/empire building interests probably worry about who will take over & have proven that if a dictator comes to power they are ok with it as long as he is "OUR" dictator. Hussein stopped being out dictator so we took him out.
    Last edited by kr1963; 03-25-2011 at 02:06 AM.

  5. #23
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya almost proves mt theory

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    I understand what you are saying. Were Bush and Rockefeler doing this and the American government and news media knowing about it, if so I assume tehy would have reported it and the time and the backlash would have been great. I dont doubt that some shady things have happened I just dont get bogged down in the conspiracy, I would have assumed that if Bush did all of that during the Gulf war their would have been a major push back by the liberal media.
    Not when the LIBERAL MEDIA is owned by big Defense contractors like GE (NBC)...remember Peter Arnett getting fired for saying the Iraqi rebels were winning the war? Peace is bad business...

  6. #24
    Olympic Champ r.payton@att.net's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya almost proves mt theory

    KR-
    A few years before you joined the TWT family I posted about the Hinckley/Bush connection and was immediately deemed an idiot and was asked to ''show one bit of proof that they knew each other''-I subsequently provided 57,000 on one site alone.
    I have searched for the video where a TV announcer says ''apparently a son of a close friend of the vice president tried to assassinate the president''but cannot find it-it has literally disappeared . Hinckley's older brother was scheduled to have lunch with Jeb Bush later that day.
    You can look it up but I have learned NOT to say anything involving conspiracies from that incident.

  7. #25
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: Libya almost proves mt theory

    Quote Originally Posted by r.payton@att.net View Post
    KR-A few years before you joined the TWT family I posted about the Hinckley/Bush connection and was immediately deemed an idiot and was asked to ''show one bit of proof that they knew each other''-I subsequently provided 57,000 on one site alone.

    I have searched for the video where a TV announcer says ''apparently a son of a close friend of the vice president tried to assassinate the president''but cannot find it-it has literally disappeared . Hinckley's older brother was scheduled to have lunch with Jeb Bush later that day.

    You can look it up but I have learned NOT to say anything involving conspiracies from that incident.
    The Conspiracy tag is just something the mainstream media likes to slap on people it wants to shut up. Generally people are good. But there is evil in the world & it takes a lot to confront it & handle it. The expression is "the devil is in the details." My post just outlines it.

    The people who are manipulating the media & hiding the truth are counting on you burying your head & not wanting to confront it. But when the world seems to be full of problems that no one can solve there is a place to start looking. Problems always have a source & the solutions can always be found.

    I understand in NOT waiting to say anything but I have had too many experiences personally to remain silent. My grandfather had clients in the Middle East when he started his shipping business in the mid 1950s & helped him run his business in NY & in Hong Kong for most of the 1980s. Lots of stories there.

    IMO, Integrity is more important then one's physical life as one takes it from one lifetime to the next. If you violate it, there are other consequences that one usually doesn't quantify & think about. But people handle things differently & I understand your choice.

    People need to wake up to the fact that "OUR" government has backed dictators for years as long as we could get control of that country's resources. Great documentation of that is John Perkins book CONFESSIONS OF AN ECONOMIC HITMAN. I have mentioned this before.

    As much as I was anti-Bush & against the war I told my Democratic professor father that if you a re voting for Obama cause he is promising to get us out of the war, you will be sadly disappointed. I told him in 2008 that the war in Iraq will not end with Obama & IF it does I guranteed him that we would be in another. It is George Orwell's prophecy of the never ending war come true.

    The Defense contractors of 1st WW discovered that war is BIG BUSINESS. Since then there has hardly been a decade gone by that has been conflict free. The Iraqi war is now longer then the 2nd WW & no one says anything.

  8. #26

    Default Re: Libya almost proves mt theory

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    My theory that if Bush had come out and said we were going to war in Iraq in order to remove a brutal dictator other nations would have backed him up and the American people would have. It is crazy to think that we cant afford the two wars we are in now according to the Obama and Clinton but now that they are in a situation to remove an unpopular dictator they are taking the chance. This situation could also stretch on for years in Libya.

    I have no problem with acting in Libya along with our allies as long as we dont take the lead, we need to concentrate on finishing the other two wars before we put boots on the ground in Libya.

    I'm a little late to this party, but my thoughts are had Bush been honest about our agenda at the time, people may have been more accepting about than they turned out to be.

    However with regard to this situation, I think you're convoluted two entirely different approaches. Obama at the least went about this in about the best possible way in my opinion.

    You get the Arab League behind it, the UK, France, Nato and you alleviate a lot of the potential fallout the United States receives.

    The larger issue though is the refusal to put soliders on the ground. I think this is obviously the largest distinction. I don't have a huge problem providing the rebels support, but the only nation building we need to concern ourselves with is our own. It's great to be the words lone super power and to consider yourself the policemen of the world, but if in the process you lose that distinction and you start to crumble, what good does that do you?

    So I agree completely with your last paragraph.

    I think it's time to sink of swim in Iraq. Our resources are better served protecting our own nation, rebuilding our infrastructure and most importantly paying down some of this outrageous debt we've incurred. I just don't see it happening.
    "The true and present danger to America is conservatism!" -Abraham Lincoln

  9. #27

    Default Re: Libya almost proves mt theory

    Quote Originally Posted by r.payton@att.net View Post
    I have a hell of a problem with our role as gun for hire -the ''rebels'' want us to support them with air strikes but they do NOT want an infidel to set foot on their soil . The US did this in Korea , then Viet Nam , then covertly in Afghanistan , too covertly in fact as the Taliban took credit for beating the russians-yet they did so with our weapons, the same weapons they are using to kill our soldiers.
    Our military is starting to look a lot like an old tv show-''HAVE GUN, WILL TRAVEL'' . I skipped our involvement in Central and South America and especially Somalia as i get too angry to type !!
    This ''war'' is not ours . PERIOD!! And quinn 14 -if the rebels lose-HTH are we going to get paid ? At least contract hit men are smart enough to get 50% up front.
    At least in Iraq we found and destroyed all those WMDs.

    Well, therein lies the crux of the problem.

    The "rebels" we're supporting today are far too often the "terrorists" we're fighting tomorrow. Not sure how many times this vicious cycle is going to perpetuate itself, but it's not doing us much good.

    And the only real solution...I suppose...is to go in, and do as we're doing in Iraq and just stay indefinitely to try and help them actually build an effective democracy and power structure. Of course we've also got a long history of supporting "democracy" provided it's the "right type" of democracy, ie, who we want to be in power.


    I guess I'll just have to have some degree of faith that Obama is going to get us out of there quickly and we'll have to see if the rebels turn out to be enemies in 20 years or not. I'm not too confident right now...
    "The true and present danger to America is conservatism!" -Abraham Lincoln

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