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Thread: Everything Penn State Wrestling

  1. #1270

    Default Re: Everything Penn State Wrestling

    "As for the NCAA investigation, because the AD appears directly involved and allegations (with no real evidence) have been made against a coach, there is justification for the NCAA to inquire in relation to institutional control. However, if there is basis for a penalty, I can't imagine anything that could satisfy the NCAA. They have a bunch of big egos if they think any NCAA penalty is of any consequence to the university in this situation given what it has and will continue to bare, publicly and financially."



    This is striking the right chord. This situation is above the NCAA's paygrade.

    Though they may decide to manufacture justification for taking action, it would represent a slippery slope. On something like this, the institution is answerable to the community/constituency it serves. Not to the NCAA.

    It isn't about institutional control of an athletic institution, it's about institutional control of an ACADEMIC institution. As far as I know there is no parallel organization involving many/most colleges that can take this on. This isn't about certifiying courses of study.

    That leaves it up to Penn State.

    There is also the rather large issue of the role in sports at our colleges, in play here. The NCAA is also poorly equipped to address that.
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  2. #1271
    NCAA Champ BlueBloodLion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything Penn State Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by LkwdSteve View Post

    Can you explain how this part of the NCAA's "core purpose" is to be achieved?

    It sure seems like the educational experience that the current football team is being integrated into, as we speak, isn't exactly what the NCAA had in mind.

    If the NCAA ignores this issue, would they also be ignoring part of their core purpose?
    So are you using this as an argument that the NCAA should or should not get involved? I view including this case (any level of it - Sandusky's acts, the administrative epic failure, McQueery's actions and the response to it, etc.), which is entirely outside the academic environment, as a massive stretch for what the NCAA considers the educational experience. However, if you choose to include it, you later posted that you felt the athletes were receiving a potent, if painful, education because of it. So you seem to arguing both sides. That's why I asked for the clarification.

  3. #1272
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    Default Re: Everything Penn State Wrestling

    Quote Originally Posted by LkwdSteve View Post

    Though they may decide to manufacture justification for taking action, it would represent a slippery slope. On something like this, the institution is answerable to the community/constituency it serves. Not to the NCAA.

    It isn't about institutional control of an athletic institution, it's about institutional control of an ACADEMIC institution. As far as I know there is no parallel organization involving many/most colleges that can take this on. This isn't about certifiying courses of study.

    That leaves it up to Penn State.
    This is entirely correct and a good point. There are so many examples of Spanier exerting executive authority (in lots of areas, not just this case) that it appears to have been his standard operating procedure, not an aberration. I have heard specific examples of him 1) announcing academic changes that can only be established by the faculty senate and they hadn't heard of it, as well as 2) telling the board of trustees (effectively his bosses) that they would only get the minimum amount of information that he was required to give them and nothing else. Amazingly, the board sat back and took it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LkwdSteve View Post
    There is also the rather large issue of the role in sports at our colleges, in play here. The NCAA is also poorly equipped to address that.
    This would be a very interesting question and is worthy of its own thread.

  4. #1273
    Olympic Champ RYou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything Penn State Wrestling

    As Paterno pointed out out this is not a football issue. Since Curley was the primary conduit of Penn State's inaction, it is an athletic department issue. From the university perspective it is an administrative issue given Spanier's complicity and Sandusky a retired employee to the university, not the athletic department.

    Lack of institutional control - the NCAA has no guideline on athletic department facility security. In fact there was no guideline for managing minors such as those at sports camps, other than recruits. There is no defined guideline to reference.

    Are they peering into administrative control? Yes, they have the Curley issue, but since Spanier and Schultz were involved, it is a larger than the athletic department.

    Punishment - Death penalty - improbable, what purpose would it serve harming so many student athletes that were youngsters at the time?

    Post season bowl or TV ban - possible, but again, serves little purpose other financial and impacts people and fans that were not involved. The PSU community and fan base have already been devastated by the allegations. Of what value could further punishment be?

    Do they extract Paterno from the Hall of Fame? They better be careful, valid evidence to support such an action hasn't been presented to date. Paterno was not a witness and there is no documentation of what Paterno said or didn't say in closed meetings or email. Always remember his November retirement statement "...one of the great sorrows of my life, I wish I had done more." "...I wish I had done more." Insight into the fact he did do something. We don't know what did try to do beyond constructing the initial meeting to inform Curley and Schultz. We don't know what opinion he expressed in that meeting with Curley referenced in Curley's email. Freeh never even corroborated that meeting actually took place. Paterno was not cc'd on that email. Curley is the one that suggested the change in reporting to Spanier and Schultz. The email states " I am not comfortable...". Not "We" are uncomfortable, not "He" or "Paterno" or "Coach" is not comfortable". "I" am not comfortable..."

    Curley had the motivation to protect Sandusky...Curley negotiated Sandusky's retirement privileges...emeritus status, football facility office and access and key...athletic department support of the Second Mile, cash. Surely his actions would be brought into question by the public. It is a known fact that it was Curley that invited Sandusky to an untold number football and athletic department events AFTER the 2001 incident including into the Lions Club box for the home football game the week prior to the arrest. Who would support such an individual given what was known?

    Spanier and Schultz were not in that alleged meeting with Paterno. Freeh never affirmed the meeting occurred in Curley or Paterno's appointment book. The fact Paterno was not cc'd could very well indicate that meeting never took place and Curley was acting on is own.

    About the only penalty available is a fine against the university, but how much. $1M? $10M? If so who gets the cash? The NCAA? or do they direct the university to fund a child abuse not for profit? Penn State is already doing that. They were the single largest financial and staffing supporter of the Second Mile and now they fund other abuse agencies.

    So, how does the NCAA exit the investigation? Do they admit it is a university and not an athletic department problem and do nothing? Not likely. They are going to have to get creative on this one.

    Curley is probably the only individual that can save Paterno's legacy by admitting he constructed the alternative report. He acted against Paterno's advice (hence, the ...I wish I had done more." Paterno statement. To do so now will be an admission of guilt to his indictment. Doubtful, his attorney will advise against that. Given the email evidence against him and his documented Grand Jury testimony, it appears he lied to the Grand Jury and is dead meat. Looks like a plea bargain and admission will be forthcoming. His one immediate opportunity is to suck it up and clear Paterno in court.
    Last edited by RYou; 07-16-2012 at 07:44 AM.
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  5. #1274

    Default Re: Everything Penn State Wrestling

    "So, how does the NCAA exit the investigation? Do they admit it is a university and not an athletic department problem and do nothing? Not likely. They are going to have to get creative on this one."



    If the NCAA does try to insert itself, I would suggest that the collective CEOs of our universities put their foot down (leaving P.ST. on the sidelines, of course) and tell the NCAA that, if they found justification for taking action within their own rules, that those rules need to be rewritten. FORWITH.

    Re-write them in such a way that it is clear to themselves, the NCAA, that they have no business being involved in something like this.



    Frankly, and further, I think the NCAA should be split into two entirely different organizations.

    One would organize and administer the sports competitions. Picking the sports, scheduling, training of referees, in-game issues of conduct (DQs, unsportmanships), TV contracts, championships, etc. Now some things that could happen on games days might be referred to the second group, specifically related to loss of control (individuals, groups).

    The second would administer to the welfare of the student-athletes and coaches. Issues would include eligiblity, recruiting, suspensions, and sanctions both athletes and colleges, among other things.

    Each group would report to a different set of university administrators.

    Probably a radical idea.

    Just throwing it out there...........
    Last edited by LkwdSteve; 07-16-2012 at 09:06 AM.
    DSCH: a Soviet artist's reply to unjust criticism.

  6. #1275

    Default Re: Everything Penn State Wrestling

    "So are you using this as an argument that the NCAA should or should not get involved? I view including this case (any level of it - Sandusky's acts, the administrative epic failure, McQueery's actions and the response to it, etc.), which is entirely outside the academic environment, as a massive stretch for what the NCAA considers the educational experience. However, if you choose to include it, you later posted that you felt the athletes were receiving a potent, if painful, education because of it. So you seem to arguing both sides. That's why I asked for the clarification."

    I like to see the best arguments from both sides of an issue put forth, if possible, then discussed.

    My conclusion is that the NCAA COULD find justification within their own rules for involvement.

    Despite that, I strongly believe they should stay out of it as a matter of principle. Thus, their charter should be re-written to make that clear.
    DSCH: a Soviet artist's reply to unjust criticism.

  7. #1276

    Default Re: Everything Penn State Wrestling

    Does anyone know what ever became of the guy who first started investigating this and was found dead? I haven't heard any follow up on that, as in foul play or something. It seemed quite curious at the time, but seems to be overlooked now.

  8. #1277

    Default Re: Everything Penn State Wrestling

    I almost forgot,

    There is one group (besides the criminal justice system) that has the scope to get involved and that is the Dept of Education.



    The idea of not allowing a football team to play for a year or two, as a way of solving the issue of pedophiles preying on our young, is almost offensive.

    People want a pound of flesh. OK. Let the appropriate organizations see to it.

    People also want no repeats, not at colleges, nor churches, nor boy scout camps, nor anywhere else. A much more difficult problem to solve, requiring thought, and where knee-jerk reactions will be largely ineffective.
    DSCH: a Soviet artist's reply to unjust criticism.

  9. #1278
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Everything Penn State Wrestling

    I agree with some of the national media in saying that if this had been west Virginia or another coach then the punishment would have been expected. Any statue would have been removed and the team disbanded. The only reason people are excusing the coach is because it was Paterno and thats it. Paterno knew what happened, he knew for years, the administration knew for years they did nothing and serious message needs to be sent to athletic departments all over the nation. Football is not king.

    If that had happened with an assistant coach on a wrestling team, the team would no longer exist. I say take the stand, forget that its penn state and paterno.

    IMO if you knew someone was molesting kids and you did nothing to stop it, then you were guilty of molesting those kids as well.

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