Anti-Immigrant Sentiment Politics & Religion - Page 4

matclone · 05-05-2008, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Chance174

Let me ask you a guys a question. Why is it hateful and/or racist to oppose illegal immigration. I support immigration and believe we need to fix our system as I stated in earlier posts.

That's Flop's strawman.

Of course it's not hateful or racist to oppose illegal immigration. But haters and racists do hate immigrants. So it's a matter of separating the wheat from the chaff, or as I said earlier, to separate the legitimate question from the hateful rhetoric.

Chance174 · 05-05-2008, 02:26 PM

-So it's ok for you to demand other's speak your language but not ok for them to demand you speak their language?

Listen when I went to other countries I never demanded that they spoke my language.

"I actually was down at the parades where I saw with my own eyes people trading in Mexican flags for American flags. You can assume all you want that I wasn't there without any facts. You seem to assume a lot. You were down here in Phoenix for all the marches and didn't see any of that. I guess you must be blind."

When they were marching demanding rights they were marching with their home countries flag, not the flag of the country they were wanting rights and citizenship from. That doesn't raise any questions with you?

Chance174 · 05-05-2008, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by matclone

Some factoids on the government services claim gleaned from my study of the issue:

Unauthorized immigrants are barred from virtually all federal benefits, including food stamps, Social Security, and Medicare.

They are barred from many state benefits (almost a complete ban in Colorado for example).

What they are not barred from is K-12 education and emergency hospital benefits. One might consider the effects (including residual costs) if we were to bar them from these benefits (the K-12 bar has been deemed unconstitutional).

Unauthorized immigrants pay income, Social Security, sales, and property (directly or indirectly) taxes.

Where public services are available to immigrants (authorized or unauthorized), studies show that they use fewer services than U.S. citizens.

Sources:
The New Americans (The Natl Academy of the Sciences) (1996)
Bell Policy Institute (2006)
Plyler v. Doe, US SCt (1982)

They might use fewer services but still use some. There might be an a "almost complete block" but not complete. There is also a lot of identity theft as well with illegals stealing SSN's.

Look at the links i provided in this thread and you will see how much they actually cost.

FloggingSully · 05-05-2008, 02:30 PM

"Wrong, the problems are NOT just illegal status. They are overcrowded schools, prisons, emergency rooms, uninsured motorists, gangs, etc. all of which are made far far worse by those who are here illegally. Changing their alienship status will not make those problems "go away". Rather they will make them even worse."

1) overcrowded schools/prisons - overcrowding can be relieved by increasing funding, if you have more money you can build more classrooms/cells, funding for these types of institutions come from taxes (and correct me if I'm wrong but most of that funding is from income taxes) which illegal immigrants don't pay. Legalizing these immigrants would force them to pay income taxes would increase funding for schools/prisons, allowing them to exapland and ease overcrowding.

2) overcrowded emergency rooms - People without insurance are more likely to use emergency services. Most people in this country can't afford insurance without employer help. If you legalize these immigrants they can get jobs with insurance and will be less likely to use emergency rooms.

3) Uninsured motorists - If you're here illegally you can't buy insurance, if you legalize these people they can and will (how many legal immigrants drive without insurance?) get insurance and there will be less uninsured motorists.

4) Gangs - People are more likely to join gangs when they are poor and/or can't get jobs, legalizing these people will give them a better chance at getting an acutal job and make joining gangs less appealing.

Tell me where I'm wrong, because it seems to me that all of the problems you listed would actually be helped by legalizing illegal immigrants.

Chance174 · 05-05-2008, 02:32 PM

"Of course it's not hateful or racist to oppose illegal immigration. But haters and racists do hate immigrants. So it's a matter of separating the wheat from the chaff, or as I said earlier, to separate the legitimate question from the hateful rhetoric."

Yes there are some haters and racist that hate immigrants. But lumping all people (or most) people that are against illegal immigration in with this group is crazy.

Yes I know some of those who are anti-illegal immigration are racist, but the majority are not.

FloggingSully · 05-05-2008, 02:33 PM

"When they were marching demanding rights they were marching with their home countries flag, not the flag of the country they were wanting rights and citizenship from. That doesn't raise any questions with you?"

-If they are trading those Mexican flags in for American flags, as you saw them do, I don't see why people are upset.

"There is also a lot of identity theft as well with illegals stealing SSN's."

-If we legalize them there would be less motivation for them to steal SSNs

matclone · 05-05-2008, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Chance174

Clone...please point out where I lied. Yes people down here actually demanded that I speak spanish. I actually had to leave a place because I didn't speak Spanish and nobody there spoke Spanish (before I learned some of it). I personally don't care if you believe me or not. I know what I experienced.

Poor man.

Originally Posted by chance174

I actually was down at the parades where I saw with my own eyes people trading in Mexican flags for American flags. You can assume all you want that I wasn't there without any facts. You seem to assume a lot. You were down here in Phoenix for all the marches and didn't see any of that. I guess you must be blind.

I wasn't in Phoenix. I live in Denver and I've been in the parades. The problem with your statement about flags is this: it's wasn't a simple statment of fact. It was a statement designed to represent the idea that Mexican immigrants are somehow disloyal to the U.S. or a threat or are in some other way are reprehensensible. I call bullshit. I'm not threatened the least by working people.

I was in the parades, which included U.S. and Mexican flags. I been on the bus with poor women, carrying U.S. flags, and their posters saying "I'm not a criminal", and I'm thinking, How were this people so dehumanized that they have to prove their right to exist without condemnation?

Chance174 · 05-05-2008, 02:39 PM

1) overcrowded schools/prisons - overcrowding can be relieved by increasing funding, if you have more money you can build more classrooms/cells, funding for these types of institutions come from taxes (and correct me if I'm wrong but most of that funding is from income taxes) which illegal immigrants don't pay. Legalizing these immigrants would force them to pay income taxes would increase funding for schools/prisons, allowing them to exapland and ease overcrowding.

This goes back to the same old question. Why should I have to pay more taxes to reward illegal behavior. The second part is yes by legalizing them they would have to pay taxes. Who hires these people....the answer those who don't want to pay at least minimum wage. If they are citizens then they have to get paid the minimum therefore wouldn't have the same jobs they have now because their previous employers will go out and find cheaper labor. Do you not see this? Are you that naive?

2) overcrowded emergency rooms - People without insurance are more likely to use emergency services. Most people in this country can't afford insurance without employer help. If you legalize these immigrants they can get jobs with insurance and will be less likely to use emergency rooms.

You can legalize them but who is going to hire and uneducated worker and pay them insurence. They would still use the emergency rooms.

3) Uninsured motorists - If you're here illegally you can't buy insurance, if you legalize these people they can and will (how many legal immigrants drive without insurance?) get insurance and there will be less uninsured motorists.

How are they going to pay for insurance if they don't have a job. They figure I believe that 1-4 people in phoenix are driving without insurance. I can't remember the breakdown for illegals only.

4) Gangs - People are more likely to join gangs when they are poor and/or can't get jobs, legalizing these people will give them a better chance at getting an acutal job and make joining gangs less appealing.

Again being naive. Do you really think legalizing the illegals is going to stop the gang problem.

Tell me where I'm wrong, because it seems to me that all of the problems you listed would actually be helped by legalizing illegal immigrants.

bluestater · 05-05-2008, 02:41 PM

By the way, Chance, my point about Native Americans is not that the people on the Mayflower immigrated here illegally. Please don't assume things about what I am saying. My point is that save Native Americans, we all came from somewhere. It blows my mind that so many people have such hatred towards immigrants when their family immigrated here, too.

matclone · 05-05-2008, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Chance174

They might use fewer services but still use some. There might be an a "almost complete block" but not complete. There is also a lot of identity theft as well with illegals stealing SSN's.

Look at the links i provided in this thread and you will see how much they actually cost.

Your links represent the haters, clearly. FAIR lacks any credibility. I dont' even need to look at the other site. These groups rely on presenting costs (always exaggerated), and ignore the taxes paid. Haters all do this. They show you half the picture, and pretend it's the whole. If I were to do what they do I would take a picture of your house at night, and then run around to everyone I knew and tell them Chance lives in perpetual darkness. Like I said earlier, they do not care for accuracy or reason. They will present false and skewed information. Their interest is not in resolving the legitimate question about immigration.

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