Spider I think it is the question is perfectly valid, I dont think your analogy is valid. Fat people are not the majority of the American society, unlike the religious population in America. The question is valid because we are not talking about strictly religious issues. When it comes to homosexuality or euthenasia these are tough issues and each person needs to vote the way they believe is right and the best way to preserve our country. I dont personaly stand with the religious right on the matter of gay and lesbian marriage even though I dont agree with the lifestyle. I am not looking for the government to promote my beliefs above anyone elses but when I vote I have to vote what I believe is right and wrong and I get that sense from my religious beliefs.
I think that Big makes a good point (and he didnt even know it). What about the Jews, would you expect them to not vote the way their culture dictates. Being Jewish isnt just a religious choice it is a culture they are a race of people.
I think the point spider is trying to get at, or at least the one I would want to get across, is that if you believe in a system of morality it exists outside religion. We should be able to give a defense of that moral code that is not religious. Otherwise, the moral code is not so moral. For example, imagine if the bible says killing your father because he listens to Elvis is moral. If the bible is the basis of morality, killing your father for listening to Elvis is moral. But its not. We can appeal to something outside of the Bible for this, and this system of morality is what should be used in governing.
Well I can see what you are saying but thats not what the bible says. My morality does come from the bible and I find nothing wrong with that. THe bible says love your neighbor as yourself, it says help those who are in need, it says dont lie, where is the issue with that.
"Spider I think it is the question is perfectly valid, I dont think your analogy is valid. Fat people are not the majority of the American society, unlike the religious population in America. The question is valid because we are not talking about strictly religious issues."
There was a time when the majority of Americans thought slavery was okay, so numbers don't always indicate what's right (and if the majority of society were fat people, would my analogy be okay?).
I think we're talking about two different issues here. When it comes to morality, SL summed up my feelings very well. It's hard to decide where morality becomes religion, since the two overlap. People (and especially legislators) must vote their conscience, but must not enact laws which are based only upon religious beliefs and not on general principals of morality.
The issue of whether freedom of religion and freedom of speech includes the right to have government participate in religion by displaying the Ten Comandments in courtrooms or including "under God" in the pledge of allegiance is another matter, and I've made my position clear on that.
The bible doesn't specify what "help those in need" means. You can "help" an unemployed person by getting them a job at "Burger King" even though that person has a master's degree. (Or attack Iraq illegally to "help" Iraqis in need) You see the problem?
It always amazes me how many religious people try to "help" when their help is not something desired.
As to "love your neighbor as yourself" that is not realistic. No one would ever love a neighbor as much as they love themselves "Unless that neighbor is a beautiful looking person of opposite sex" of course.
As to lying, there is a place for that as well. If I come to my 94 year old ailing grandmother and she asks me how are things at work and I am getting fired, would it be a good thing to tell her the truth and deeply upset her?
Ugly of course that is not what the Bible says. The point is that if the bible could not just say anything (which you just said it cannot) that there is then a moral code outside of the bible.
It is almost impossible for people to sperate their own moral code from the other aspects of their life. I agree that just because the majority want it does not make it right also just because the law says it is alright doesnt mean it is. What I Should have said instead is that Fat people dont want to be fat, fat is not a way of life or a set of values. Being fat has no affect on your moral compass.
I think that it is unrealistic to want people to put their faith aside when it comes to politics. People will always vote the way they believe religious or not. People will always vote for representatives that have similar beliefs and will promote those. Like I said if we want a change then start voting to get the candidates in office that have no religious affiliation.
There is a difference between your true beliefs and strictly doing something because the bible says so.
Originally Posted by UGLY