I have things to say, but have to go to work. Stay tuned and thanks for a stimulating discussion (as usual).

Originally Posted by UGLY

I read somewhere that a mathmatician said that the chances of the earth and life being created as the scientists have stated is impossible and could never be replicated in the same manner if it all were end. I have also read where most people agree that in all cases that science presents for the origin of life teeter on a razors edge and that just one mis-step would have put an end to any chance of life, and that this balancing act had to occur for an unknown amount of time. I think that if this is the case that getting a little help from an intelligent being could not hurt. And no I dont believe there is a God because of the complexity of our origin.

Spider I see you point and I guess it is possible for the past to be infinite. Do you think that we will ever really be able to know how it all happened.

I'll sneak this in while my patient's getting numb.

If the universe is indeed infinite, how can the odds of anything happening be calculated? Even if the odds are 1 in ten to the billionth power, the universe is big enough to overcome those odds.

No, Ugly, I know that you don't believe in God simply because of the complexity of the universe, but many believers use the intelligent design argument as a reason why it's foolish not to believe in God. I don't think that's valid logic.

If I knew the true nature of things, I'd know if they are knowable or not. Maybe there's a cosmic "rosetta stone" that will explain it all, or maybe we'll evolve to the point where we will get it, or maybe God (or our alien creators) will reveal Himself and there will be no doubt, or maybe society will develop to the point where religion is no longer necessary (in a good way), or maybe we'll just keep on pluggin' along trying to refute scientific theories with religion and trying to deny the existence of God for lack of scientific evidence.

Guess he's numb by now. Hope those reading this aren't.

Originally Posted by UGLY

I read somewhere that a mathmatician said that the chances of the earth and life being created as the scientists have stated is impossible and could never be replicated in the same manner if it all were end. I have also read where most people agree that in all cases that science presents for the origin of life teeter on a razors edge and that just one mis-step would have put an end to any chance of life, and that this balancing act had to occur for an unknown amount of time. I think that if this is the case that getting a little help from an intelligent being could not hurt. And no I dont believe there is a God because of the complexity of our origin.

If we believe that there are causal relationships for all things (except quantam mechanics/ physics which is beyond me), i do not see why the past having to have been the way it was for our present state to be the way it is is mind-boggling. For example, if water were not an odd element in that it gets less dense when it colder after 0 celcius, life may not have started on earth. My catholic science teacher pointed this out to me. I do not see how that is compelling or much different from the contingency of your own existence (how many things had to come in place for your parent's to meet) the great amount of stuff that had to take place for the universe to exist becomes a bit less awesome or needing of some ID help.

Sorry I see how i might have looked as if I had been trying to put words in your mouth ugly. wasn't trying to -- i did understand your posistion, was just talking about the more common one first.

No need to apologize SL I just thought I should give an answer to that phrase.

I have read where some think that life on earth may have come from mars or that there was some other type of extraterrestial(sp) explantation for life.

The only reason I bring up the odds is simply to illustrate that the chances of life starting the way science suggests is skeptical at best. I have been told by biologists that evolution is not the science of how life began but it is the science of how life got to this point. I think the How life began is perhaps a more important question than how we got to this point. The curator of the Museum of Natural History in Chicago said that the fossil record seems to just appear and that the fossils seem to be full grown and that there is no proof of evolution, in the phyla. That was 1979 so I dont know ho true that is today.

Just think of the billions of little sperms trying to get to the egg and only one little sperm out of the billions is the lucky one to start life. This is a microcosm of how complex are the things we are trying to measure up against the bible.

A regular person is not meant to understand most of this without advanced knowledge. I don't know why people feel the need to talk about some "God" to explain it all.

Now Big if you only had one sperm that had a 1 in a billion chance to make to the egg then I would be impressed.

That is the least of my concerns. I am sure you have already done enough for both of us.

I am sure I have, but dont give up yet.