Originally Posted by FloggingSully

"First of all, I didnt limit that to JUST AWNR. I included ALL offshore areas as well."
-How much oil could we get from offshore drilling? and how much would it cost to extract?

"Second of all, I'd take a 10% cut in energy costs ANYDAY! And if you think it doesnt make any difference, then lets just ADD 10% and see how you like that!"
-Who said 10%? I said a max of 10 cents (2.5% at $4/gallon), if you use a less conservative estimate of worldwide demand (like the 80 something million barrels quoted by, I think, Cyclone85) the percentage would be much lower. The 2.5% is also the largest the decrease could be if demand for oil had normal elasticity (since it's actually inelastic the decrease in price would be less, I don't know how much less but I'd guess a lot, oil's demand is very inelastic).
We dont know what it will mean untill it is drilled! It may be more it may be less. I have heard it will be close to what we buy from the Saudis. And even if it was half that it would be worth drilling.

"The point about ANWR especially is the reasons for NOT drilling there are just incredibly narrow-minded borderering on fallacious. The area impacted is about the size of an average metropolitan airport while AWNR itself is roughly the size of Delaware. That area itself is promoted as a pristine forrested paradise when infact it is barren tundra with nothing growing higher than your kneecap. Frankly I cant think of a BETTER place to plant a drilling platform!"

-The area impacted by drilling and the area that will be impacted if we start drilling are very different. And who is promoting ANWR as a pristine forested paradise? I'm going to go out on a limb and say you are the only person who as ever made that comparison. However, tundras can be just as important ecologically as forests and the height to which things grow is a terrible indicator of ecological value.

Good Morning America did a piece on ANWR just last week. Lots and LOTS of trees, mountains, caribou...but NO TUNDRA. Nor any mention of the miniscule footprint of the area to be drilled. Just the very adjective of "pristine" conjures up forested areas with babling brooks etc. Just dire predictions of what "some say" will be the "potential" impact on caribou mating areas as if that tiny area will keep caribou from mating altogether.

Yes, tundras can be important, but we have to drill SOMEWHERE and that is about as good a spot as I can imagine.

This is all VERY similar to the caterwauling over the Alaska Pipeline decades ago. Dire predictions of massive loss of habitat and wildlife gross exaggerations on mating paterns etc. Other dire predictions of massive oil spills, melting permafrost, etc, etc, etc! ALL of which proving FALSE.

In FACT... quite the opposite. Caribou not only migrate from one side to the other they CONGREGATE there in the winter because the snow pack is much thinner there in the winter. So much so that it has become a bonanza to the wildlife there much like a sunken ship becomes to marine life.

Originally Posted by FloggingSully

"We dont know what it will mean untill it is drilled! It may be more it may be less. I have heard it will be close to what we buy from the Saudis. And even if it was half that it would be worth drilling."
-Um, we don't just go around drilling willy-nilly, oil companies have a really good idea of how much oil they can get before they set up hugely expensive drilling opperations. The 1 million barrel per day number I've been using is from a report I heard on NPR, since you haven't produced any other estimates I went looking and found a report from the DOE which estimates between 1 and 1.35 million barrels per day (with an absolute best case scenario of 1.9 million barrels). These increases in worldwide supply would do nothing to reduce gas prices (unless you think going from $4 to $3.95 will solve our energy problems).

You say they would do nothing to reduce oil prices which is absurdly false. Try taking that much out of supply. We took far far less than that out when Katrina hit and temporarily shut down refinaries and offshore wells and gas prices went up.
DOE Report

Besides, if anyone thought drilling in ANWR would do anything to solve our energy problem we'd already be drilling there. The department of homeland security has the authority to overrule any and all environmental legislation in the country.

That can only be done in case of National Emergency and that is NOT the case here.

"Good Morning America did a piece on ANWR just last week. Lots and LOTS of trees, mountains, caribou...but NO TUNDRA."
-Wait a minute, I thought you said nothing grew there above your knee. Are you wrong or was GMA wrong? or where they midget trees?

As they were discussing AWNR they were showing an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT area far south of the area to be impacted which I repeat is TUNDRA. It was an obvious attempt to falsify the true situation. AWNR is HUGE. Like I said the size of Delaware and it does not all have the same flora.

"Just dire predictions of what "some say" will be the "potential" impact on caribou mating areas as if that tiny area will keep caribou from mating altogether."
-I'd argue that the potential impact to the wildlife in the area would outweigh the 1 cent per gallon you'd save at the pump. I probably value wildlife more than some people though.

You havent proven anything more than a few dozen acres of frozen grass will be disturbed. And its more than 1 cent a gallon and you know it.

"Yes, tundras can be important, but we have to drill SOMEWHERE"
-Say's who?

Oh... so you want to shut down every internal combustion engine or would you rather just make us 100% dependent on foreign sources and only pollute THEIR side of the world? Dont you care about ecology worldwide?

"Name ONE area any ecologist has said would be OK to drill."
-How about the non-protected areas in the alaskan coastal plain?
As I said .....or areas that are deemed non-productive drilling wise. (see below) If those areas were prospective we WOULD ALREADY be drilling there!

"They dont want drilling ANYWHERE! If they give you one, I bet either its already been drilled or its believed nonproductive anyway"
-No shit, if there were any places left that aren't ecologically important and are believed to be productive we'd have already drilled there.

Do you know ANYTHING about petroleum. Its NOT everywhere under the ground! Geesh!

-You can drill for oil in every wildlife preserve in the world and it won't solve the problem that demand for oil is increasing faster than supply can keep up. We aren't going to drill our way out of the current energy crisis and the sooner we realize that the sooner we can try to come up with a realistic solution.

Originally Posted by Big

Back to chopping wood and riding a bicycle is what you need to do tight a$$.

Originally Posted by FloggingSully

"But, thank you for telling us that income disparity is not an economic problem. WAY too many people think it is"
-Show me where I said income disparity isn't an economic problem. You said that Brazil's energy policy wasn't economically feasible because they have huge income disparity, I said that income disparity is only useful in determining the success of a policy if you look at a trend in income disparity. Looking at a snapshot of an economic indicator isn't going to tell you anything about the effectivness of any policy.

"Who is saying people will buy whatever is advertised to them?? You and matclone, among others!!"
-Again, show me where I said anything of the sort.

"Understand that for industry to shape demand, the consumer would have to have absolutely no say in what he buys."
-That is simply false, people can buy whatever they want, but industry can influence what people want to buy, if industry couldn't they wouldn't bother to advertise their products.

"You find what people want and you find ways to tell them they can buy it from you."
-Which increases demand for the product. Read an intro to econ text book, demand increases as people become aware of a product and it becomes more available. If you make people aware of a product, and make it readily available you will increase the demand for that good.