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Thread: I cant believe this.

  1. #19
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant believe this.

    Clone,

    Dealing in the right now is something we have to do sometime. It doesn't matter what you think about the law or I think about it. What does matter is that these firefighters passed the test they were told they needed to pass in order to promote. When the results came in and no Black applicants had scored high enough to promote those results were deemed unacceptable. If the state threw the results out to avoid a law suite from the Black firefighters they discriminated against those non black firefighters who took the test in good faith and should have been promoted. If the court rules against the promotable firefighter it sends a bad message. The message is that the battle is now up hill for them because they are not Black and that the gov. will tweak qualifications and standards to hire more blacks or to promote more blacks. That puts everyone else at a disadvantage and is discrimination IMO.

    Pretend this was a wrestling tournament, in 14 weight classes you have 3 black finalist 7 Hispanic and 18 white. In the end there were 12 white champs 2 Hispanic but no black. Would you be alright with not giving the Champions their trophy because no black people would get trophies or would you say the best guys won. The competition was fair and all had the same chance to win and to train to win.

    I dont care if they never promoted a black person as long as there was an equality of opportunity.

  2. #20

    Default Re: I cant believe this.

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    That's right. I would hate it if simpletons took over the world.
    Clone isn't the overall goal to get to the point where the best person is hired and with nothing do to with race, gender, ect....?

  3. #21
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    Default Re: I cant believe this.

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    Clone,

    Dealing in the right now is something we have to do sometime. It doesn't matter what you think about the law or I think about it. What does matter is that these firefighters passed the test they were told they needed to pass in order to promote. When the results came in and no Black applicants had scored high enough to promote those results were deemed unacceptable. If the state threw the results out to avoid a law suite from the Black firefighters they discriminated against those non black firefighters who took the test in good faith and should have been promoted. If the court rules against the promotable firefighter it sends a bad message.
    The message is that the battle is now up hill for them because they are not Black and that the gov. will tweak qualifications and standards to hire more blacks or to promote more blacks. That puts everyone else at a disadvantage and is discrimination IMO.
    Ah, I see you've already decided the issue, and the court's role is unnecessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    Pretend this was a wrestling tournament, in 14 weight classes you have 3 black finalist 7 Hispanic and 18 white. In the end there were 12 white champs 2 Hispanic but no black. Would you be alright with not giving the Champions their trophy because no black people would get trophies or would you say the best guys won. The competition was fair and all had the same chance to win and to train to win.
    Bad analogy in that wrestling tournaments have not traditionally or historically awarded victories based on race. Certain fire departments cannot say the same thing.

  4. #22

    Default Re: I cant believe this.

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    Do you think who you are today has nothing to do with your parents or their parents before them, or the cultures they lived in?
    That is a very good point however I am who I am today IN SPITE of what my parents were. They were drug addicts that filed bankruptcy twice and could barely support their own habits. They never paid off debts and couldn't balance a checkbook. I am almost the complete opposite of that. I don't owe a penny to anyone except for my mortgage (which will be paid off in under 10 years--before I turn 40). I'm paying CASH for college and I've never touched any illegal or illicit drugs. So just because my parents were losers doesn't mean that I'm going to be a loser. My grandfather has A LOT of native American blood in him, enough that he could have received government assistance. So I do come from a family that has faced racism.

    Just because you were born into a bad situarion or fewer opportunities doesn't meand that you have to stay there. I know that earlier blacks faced incredible hatred and racism. However I do not believe that it is systematic today. Is there some? Absolutely. Will there always be? Absolutely. There will always be idiots that hate someone just because they are different.


    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    We're back to a hypothetical supplanting history.
    I'm not saying that a hypothetical should supplant history, however we should not be so concerned with history that we are blind to the present.


    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    The city's reasoning is squarely based upon your second definition of racism (which incorporates the first).

    Your question about the test is reasonable, but the issue again is whether the city's method for promotion has had a disparate impact on the basis of race. Maybe it does; maybe it doesn't. That's sort of a fact finding inquiry.
    The problem with this is that it is a Sampling argument fallacy. Meaning that you cant' say that just because a small number of blacks did poorly on the test and a small number of whites did well that the test (and therefore the promotions) is biased. It is possible that the individuals that scored well just happened to be white and those that scored badly just happened to be black. I know that if this promotion had been taken away from me I would be livid.

    It would be interesting to see how this test would come out if it was given to say 5000 firefighters of varying ethnicities.

  5. #23
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    Default Re: I cant believe this.

    Thank you for clarifying my prior loose remark, black n red, and adding a new perspective on the issue.

  6. #24
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: I cant believe this.

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    Ah, I see you've already decided the issue, and the court's role is unnecessary.



    Bad analogy in that wrestling tournaments have not traditionally or historically awarded victories based on race. Certain fire departments cannot say the same thing.

    It is a great analogy to this situation and what is happening right now. To you who wants to live in the past it is bad. You dont think there was a time when Blacks where not allowed to compete in wrestling? Or that they could compete but not against whites or not at a varsity level?

    Why do you feel it is alright to make the persons who excel suffer because they are of a majority race? Why cant you say that the best person for the job should get it?

    I have not decided the issue but I know hundreds of firefighters and police officers and I can tell you where I think the issue will go if the courts rule in favor of the city. It is a logical conclusion. Or do you think that those who are the best for the job will just lay down and get passed over because of their race? Don't you think it would create tension in a fire house if the Lt. or Cap in charge was seen as unfit by his/her subordinates and undeserving. What happens if an under qualified person gets put in charge and people die, have you thought of that. This has got to go beyond race, the best people have got to be in place.

  7. #25

    Default Re: I cant believe this.

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    Ah, I see you've already decided the issue, and the court's role is unnecessary.



    Bad analogy in that wrestling tournaments have not traditionally or historically awarded victories based on race. Certain fire departments cannot say the same thing.
    That actually might be a great example. Do you know, does this fire department have a history of racism? If they don't then who or what is to say that they just all of the sudden started?

  8. #26
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    Default Re: I cant believe this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snackem View Post
    That is a very good point however I am who I am today IN SPITE of what my parents were.
    My point is this: we all are influenced by the past, and in spite of our accomplishments and efforts today, none of us can say we are who we are, or that we got to where we are, all on our own. Yes, your effort and desire has shaped you. Yet, someone protected and fed us when we were little; someone gave us encouragement along the way; someone showed us right from wrong; someone gave a sense of our role in society--which could have been a role or privilege, or a role in which we knew that certain things were off limits. Conversely, some of us had fewer hurdles to jump over along the way, race being one hurdle that some face.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snackem View Post
    I'm not saying that a hypothetical should supplant history, however we should not be so concerned with history that we are blind to the present.
    Indeed we should not.

  9. #27
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    Default Re: I cant believe this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snackem View Post
    That actually might be a great example. Do you know, does this fire department have a history of racism? If they don't then who or what is to say that they just all of the sudden started?
    It's right in the well written story Ugly linked to, and this (historical discrimination) is the key factor that you and others wish to ignore:

    NAACP spokesperson: In many cities, including New Haven, the "fire department was the preserve of white males," said John Payton, who is also counsel for the defense fund. "African Americans were virtually excluded."

    Now, we don't need to decide here and now as a factual matter, whether this is true. My point of concern is that everyone just dismisses the argument as if it didn't exist.

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