America's still the best

sgallan · 05-14-2008, 11:53 PM

We have a high incarceration rate because a lot of people think that they can have children without having to raise them and be responsible parents. This leads to the crime we see by predominantly fatherless people who have had no one to teach them how to decently act. The fathers have implicitly said that they want someone else to discipline their kids, since they didn't want to do it, and they have looked to the government for help, by way of incarceration.

Fair enough - at least you put an answer forward.

Our laws are no secret and there is no secret to staying out of jail. Those who are in jail are there because of their own behavior. If you don't like incarcerating those who violate others' rights, perhaps you won't hold any ill will to anyone if they should happen to violate your rights. But, you've already told us that you advocate lower incarceration for everyone excpet those who violate your rights.

No, you are wrong here.... I really don't give a f*ck anymore - well as long as they don't kill my population of students. Seriously. I don't know these people - I don't give a sh!t. They can lock them up and throw away the key. They can gun them down. Whatever. The mentality..... It is the nature of our society and I am cool with it. Just don't tell me we are the "best". That only depends on your definition of "best".

FloggingSully · 05-15-2008, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by skipster

We have a high incarceration rate because a lot of people think that they can have children without having to raise them and be responsible parents. This leads to the crime we see by predominantly fatherless people who have had no one to teach them how to decently act. The fathers have implicitly said that they want someone else to discipline their kids, since they didn't want to do it, and they have looked to the government for help, by way of incarceration.

Are there more absentee fathers in the US than in other developed countries with lower incarceration rates?

Cyclone85 · 05-15-2008, 10:16 AM

I don't know, but I know we are witnessing a catastrophic breakdown in the social fabric of the African American community, and nobody seems to want to talk about it. It is a sensitive topic to say the least, and it makes me nervous to even chime in about it. It's bad enough that 1 out of 3 white babies are born to single mothers, but it should be horrifying to everyone that 3 out of 4 African American babies are born to single mothers who are almost always poverty stricken to begin with. This is a vicious cycle that apparently is nearly impossible to break. Bill Cosby pointed this out and he also said that there are more African American men in prison than there are in college. It is hard to build a middle-class with that in mind. 42% of the prison population is made up of African Americans despite representing only 12% of the population.

Now, the question is why is this happening and is anything being done about it. Bill Cosby has attempted to talk about this, but he was called a racist and has been set aside. With welfare reform, I believe the mother has to work, so another question is -- who is raising the kids? Older kids?

Just to be clear, this is a problem for all races, but it is particularly bad among African Americans.

Originally Posted by FloggingSully

Are there more absentee fathers in the US than in other developed countries with lower incarceration rates?

Tight-Waist · 05-15-2008, 10:24 AM

I think we need to take a look at why people can fly down to Mexico or over to India or any number of places and have operations done (in good hospitals) for a fraction of the price they have to pay here.

Just how much are we paying for HEPA, liability insurance, Taj Mahal hospitals, buracracies, government mandates etc?

matclone · 05-15-2008, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Cyclone85

I don't know, but I know we are witnessing a catastrophic breakdown in the social fabric of the African American community, and nobody seems to want to talk about it. It is a sensitive topic to say the least, and it makes me nervous to even chime in about it. It's bad enough that 1 out of 3 white babies are born to single mothers, but it should be horrifying to everyone that 3 out of 4 African American babies are born to single mothers who are almost always poverty stricken to begin with. This is a vicious cycle that apparently is nearly impossible to break. Bill Cosby pointed this out and he also said that there are more African American men in prison than there are in college. It is hard to build a middle-class with that in mind. 42% of the prison population is made up of African Americans despite representing only 12% of the population.

Now, the question is why is this happening and is anything being done about it. Bill Cosby has attempted to talk about this, but he was called a racist and has been set aside. With welfare reform, I believe the mother has to work, so another question is -- who is raising the kids? Older kids?

Just to be clear, this is a problem for all races, but it is particularly bad among African Americans.

Do you suppose poverty, rather than race, might be a better indicator of single motherhood? Do you suppose cultural factors (such as nearly non-stop sex on television brought to us by corporate America) have anything to do with single motherhood? I'm sure a lot of people are "doing something about it" especially at the local level, in schools, churches, and social agencies, but I don't see too much at the national level. For example, you don't see too much on television encouraging children to remain chaste, and you don't hear the President say much about it. As to who is raising the kids, the answer varies, but in growing numbers it's Grandma.

I disagree that no one wants to talk about it. What I dont' want to have to talk about but invariably do is this racially charged notion that the problem has something to do with being black, and the underlying notion that "they" (blacks) are flawed. I see you had the good sense to mention that single motherhood happens amongst all races, but, again, I dont' think its driving force is anyone's race.

Cyclone85 · 05-15-2008, 01:36 PM

I did not offer any reasons. I'm just concerned more about them as a group right now because it is devastating them more than anybody else by far. I guess that makes anyone a racists for saying that; like Bill Uncle Tom Cosby. What a shame how they've thrown one of the great American icons under the proverbial bus. Why can't we be concerned for a particular race of people? The left is totally obsessed with race, but now all of the sudden it is off-limits? All JWright, Sharpton, and JJackson.com ... all they talk about is race.

Fine -- if you want to limit this strictly to poverty, go for it. But then you can never bring race into the question again. So it follows, you are not allowed to lecture anyone from this point forward that not enough is being done for one particular race. After all -- it's a war on poverty.

And finally -- I never attributed any of this to one's race man. I didn't say anything about being flawed. Look, I know you don't like me, but do you really have to be so GD condescending? Join the family of man and have a decent conversation already.

Originally Posted by matclone

Do you suppose poverty, rather than race, might be a better indicator of single motherhood? Do you suppose cultural factors (such as nearly non-stop sex on television brought to us by corporate America) have anything to do with single motherhood? I'm sure a lot of people are "doing something about it" especially at the local level, in schools, churches, and social agencies, but I don't see too much at the national level. For example, you don't see too much on television encouraging children to remain chaste, and you don't hear the President say much about it. As to who is raising the kids, the answer varies, but in growing numbers it's Grandma.

I disagree that no one wants to talk about it. What I dont' want to have to talk about but invariably do is this racially charged notion that the problem has something to do with being black, and the underlying notion that "they" (blacks) are flawed. I see you had the good sense to mention that single motherhood happens amongst all races, but, again, I dont' think its driving force is anyone's race.

skipster · 05-15-2008, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by matclone

Do you suppose poverty, rather than race, might be a better indicator of single motherhood? Do you suppose cultural factors (such as nearly non-stop sex on television brought to us by corporate America) have anything to do with single motherhood? I'm sure a lot of people are "doing something about it" especially at the local level, in schools, churches, and social agencies, but I don't see too much at the national level. For example, you don't see too much on television encouraging children to remain chaste, and you don't hear the President say much about it. As to who is raising the kids, the answer varies, but in growing numbers it's Grandma.

I disagree that no one wants to talk about it. What I dont' want to have to talk about but invariably do is this racially charged notion that the problem has something to do with being black, and the underlying notion that "they" (blacks) are flawed. I see you had the good sense to mention that single motherhood happens amongst all races, but, again, I dont' think its driving force is anyone's race.

I think the only indicator of single motherhood is a mother having a child and the father not being present in the child's life. What we see on TV, things in our culture, and corporate America have NOTHING to do with single motherhood. We can't make a definite correlation between the two. The driving force is not corporate America or someone else -- the driving force is the individual.

skipster · 05-15-2008, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by FloggingSully

Are there more absentee fathers in the US than in other developed countries with lower incarceration rates?

This is where a number of the problems come from. But, I can't say for sure that absentee fathers are the cause for high incarceration. What I can say and be 100% sure about it is that higher commissions of crime result in higher incarceration rates.

matclone · 05-15-2008, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Cyclone85

I did not offer any reasons.

Your statement was predominantly colored with the notion that this is a black problem. It's a common notion.

Originally Posted by Cyclone85

I guess that makes anyone a racists for saying that; like Bill Uncle Tom Cosby. What a shame how they've thrown one of the great American icons under the proverbial bus. Why can't we be concerned about a particular class of people? The left is totally obsessed with race, but now all of the sudden it is off-limits?

Why the defensiveness? Why all the strawmen? No one called you or anyone else a racist, and I had no intention of insinuating the same. No one here called Bill Cosby a racist or an Uncle Tom, or said his message was wrong. No one here said a discussion of race was off-limits. I'm just critical of a certain notion and tried to make a distinction and turn the discussion to where I think it belongs.

Originally Posted by Cyclone85

All JWright, Sharpton, and JJackson.com ... all they talk about is race.

Probably less so than Michael Savage, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity.

Originally Posted by Cyclone85

And finally -- I never attributed any of this to one's race man. I didn't say anything about being flawed. Look, I know you don't like me, but do you really have to be so GD condescending? Join the family of man and have a decent conversation already.

I'm sorry, the flawed race is all too often the insinuation. It's all over media, and people naturally pick up on it. My goal is simply to point this out where it occurs.
I don't dislike you. You know how to carry on an intelligent conversation--and not everyone does. And you obviously have some education.

Tight-Waist · 05-15-2008, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by matclone

Why the defensiveness? Why all the strawmen? No one called you or anyone else a racist, and I had no intention of insinuating the same. No one here called Bill Cosby a racist or an Uncle Tom, or said his message was wrong. No one here said a discussion of race was off-limits. I'm just critical of a certain notion and tried to make a distinction and turn the discussion to where I think it belongs.

You have on other chatboards matclone.

America's still the best

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