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Thread: Top Bush advisors approved torture?

  1. #1
    Olympic Champ therick's Avatar
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    Default Top Bush advisors approved torture?

    Sources: Top Bush Advisors Approved 'Enhanced Interrogation'
    Detailed Discussions Were Held About Techniques to Use on al Qaeda Suspects
    By JAN CRAWFORD GREENBURG, HOWARD L. ROSENBERG and ARIANE de VOGUE
    April 9, 2008

    In dozens of top-secret talks and meetings in the White House, the most senior Bush administration officials discussed and approved specific details of how high-value al Qaeda suspects would be interrogated by the Central Intelligence Agency, sources tell ABC News.

    http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LawPoli...4583256&page=1


    My favorite quote from the article and probably the most telling statement is on the last page.

    According to a top official, Ashcroft asked aloud after one meeting: "Why are we talking about this in the White House? History will not judge this kindly."

    This coming from the same administration that claims to be against torture and who actually fancies itself as having the moral high ground compared to the terrorists. There was a time when the United States of America was a beacon to much of the world for what was right and wrong and one way we did that was the humane treatment of our prisoners of war. We are now only slightly better than those we fight.

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    Default Re: Top Bush advisors approved torture?

    When you fear the enemy you take extreme measures. Even the most moral and "Godly" people are that way. Up until now there was never an enemy of America's that was so invincible yet so deadly and situated right in the heart of the fuel sources.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Top Bush advisors approved torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by therick View Post
    Sources: Top Bush Advisors Approved 'Enhanced Interrogation'
    Detailed Discussions Were Held About Techniques to Use on al Qaeda Suspects
    By JAN CRAWFORD GREENBURG, HOWARD L. ROSENBERG and ARIANE de VOGUE
    April 9, 2008

    In dozens of top-secret talks and meetings in the White House, the most senior Bush administration officials discussed and approved specific details of how high-value al Qaeda suspects would be interrogated by the Central Intelligence Agency, sources tell ABC News.

    http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LawPoli...4583256&page=1


    My favorite quote from the article and probably the most telling statement is on the last page.

    According to a top official, Ashcroft asked aloud after one meeting: "Why are we talking about this in the White House? History will not judge this kindly."

    This coming from the same administration that claims to be against torture and who actually fancies itself as having the moral high ground compared to the terrorists. There was a time when the United States of America was a beacon to much of the world for what was right and wrong and one way we did that was the humane treatment of our prisoners of war. We are now only slightly better than those we fight.
    How do you define "torture"?

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    Olympic Champ therick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Top Bush advisors approved torture?

    I'll use the definition in the US code


    (1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
    (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
    (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
    (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
    (C) the threat of imminent death; or
    (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18...0----000-.html

    So, simulated drowning would be defined as torture.

    Would you consider simulated drowning as torture? Would you consider it torture if I held you on your back. Stuffed a rag into your mouth, and then poured water over your face so that the water ran into your mouth and nose and you could not breath because any attempt to do so would mean breathing in water. Keep in mind that the rag in your mouth would keep you from coughing up any of that water. Would you consider that torture if it was done to you?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Top Bush advisors approved torture?

    T_W:
    Has the fear gotten you so much that you have to ask how to define "torture"?
    Wow.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Top Bush advisors approved torture?

    I said a while back that some high-ranking members of the administration may someday be doing the frog walk because of this. It doesn't matter if you're a liberal, a libertarian, a conservative, or whatever -- torture should sicken you. The point of torture is not to extract good information. The point of torture is torture.

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    Default Re: Top Bush advisors approved torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flop The Nuts View Post
    I said a while back that some high-ranking members of the administration may someday be doing the frog walk because of this. It doesn't matter if you're a liberal, a libertarian, a conservative, or whatever -- torture should sicken you. The point of torture is not to extract good information. The point of torture is torture.

    The point of torture is to scare the freedom fighters. Otherwise we would not know about it.

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    Default Re: Top Bush advisors approved torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flop The Nuts View Post
    I said a while back that some high-ranking members of the administration may someday be doing the frog walk because of this. It doesn't matter if you're a liberal, a libertarian, a conservative, or whatever -- torture should sicken you. The point of torture is not to extract good information. The point of torture is torture.
    Right on the money!

    Information gained under torture by it's very nature is very unreliable.
    If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for, at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them.

    ~Paul Wellstone~

  9. #9

    Default Re: Top Bush advisors approved torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by therick View Post
    I'll use the definition in the US code


    (1) ?torture? means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
    (2) ?severe mental pain or suffering? means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from?
    (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
    (B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
    (C) the threat of imminent death; or
    (D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18...0----000-.html

    So, simulated drowning would be defined as torture.

    Would you consider simulated drowning as torture? Would you consider it torture if I held you on your back. Stuffed a rag into your mouth, and then poured water over your face so that the water ran into your mouth and nose and you could not breath because any attempt to do so would mean breathing in water. Keep in mind that the rag in your mouth would keep you from coughing up any of that water. Would you consider that torture if it was done to you?
    Under this definition, police commit torture EVERYTIME they taser someone.

    What you describe above could easily be defined as torture depending on the individule, and so could Marine boot camp and SEAL training.

    I would not allow what you describe above except under a National Emergency with potential loss of American civilian life and under the direct order of the President and with the approval of a Federal Judge. This is very similar to the scenario laid out by Alan Dershowitz.

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