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Thread: We will have our own serf-like workers

  1. #10

    Default Re: We will have our own serf-like workers

    This bill spells the end of the middle class in America. The rich will get richer, the middle class will become the working class poor, and the temporary workers will be the serf class. There are currently 12 to 20 million illegal aliens in the US now. They will be allowed to bring children and parents. This could mean over 100 million under educated, low skilled workers that will flood the workplace over the next 10 years. Big business will be able to finally compete against the likes of China and India. Like Skipster likes to say, it is all about buyers and sellers, supply and demand. With a new labor pool of over ioo million new workers big business will be able to drasticly lower wages to all workers, get rid of benifits and pensions and rake in record profits. Benifits will fall on the government so taxes will skyrocket as government grows dramaticly to handle this influx. The Democrats think that they have scored a victory in being able to help this underclass but the Republics and big business see the big picture and will pass this in one form or another. The following is some of what I have been able to garner. We are getting nothing but bullet points and spin from the media. This bill has over 60 pages of details that we are not getting to see.

    The Senate bill, S. 1348, includes immediate and irrevocable benefits for tens of millions of illegal aliens, access to low-wage foreign labor for business interests, and nothing but more worthless promises to the American public that the government would enforce immigration laws in the future.


    S. 1348, which the Senate is expected to vote on as early as Monday, was hammered out behind closed doors, bypassing the hearings process or any assessment of the fiscal, labor market or environmental impact. The bill would grant amnesty to nearly every illegal alien in the United States as well as children and elderly parents who may be residing outside the country. Within 24 hours of filing an application, illegal aliens would be granted work authorization and relief from possible deportation, without any background checks. In addition, the legislation calls for the admission of 400,000 additional "guest workers" plus their dependent family members each year, some of whom will be permitted to remain permanently.


    In agreeing to this bill, the United States Senate has broken every promise that has been made to the American people. The bill reneges on promises that amnesty would never again be offered to people who are in this country illegally; it violates commitments that Congress has made to protect the interests of American workers; and it compromises the security of this nation by granting legal status to people who may pose a threat to the nation. Adding to the betrayal, this surrender of the public interest was negotiated by senators who had personally pledged, as recently as last year, never to agree to any bill that includes amnesty.


    This bill will have ramafication for all future generations and should be carefully thought out. There should be open hearings and input by any and all interested parties.

  2. #11

    Default Re: We will have our own serf-like workers

    Quote Originally Posted by hardcore View Post
    This bill spells the end of the middle class in America. The rich will get richer, the middle class will become the working class poor, and the temporary workers will be the serf class. There are currently 12 to 20 million illegal aliens in the US now. They will be allowed to bring children and parents. This could mean over 100 million under educated, low skilled workers that will flood the workplace over the next 10 years. Big business will be able to finally compete against the likes of China and India. Like Skipster likes to say, it is all about buyers and sellers, supply and demand. With a new labor pool of over ioo million new workers big business will be able to drasticly lower wages to all workers, get rid of benifits and pensions and rake in record profits. Benifits will fall on the government so taxes will skyrocket as government grows dramaticly to handle this influx. The Democrats think that they have scored a victory in being able to help this underclass but the Republics and big business see the big picture and will pass this in one form or another. The following is some of what I have been able to garner. We are getting nothing but bullet points and spin from the media. This bill has over 60 pages of details that we are not getting to see.

    The Senate bill, S. 1348, includes immediate and irrevocable benefits for tens of millions of illegal aliens, access to low-wage foreign labor for business interests, and nothing but more worthless promises to the American public that the government would enforce immigration laws in the future.


    S. 1348, which the Senate is expected to vote on as early as Monday, was hammered out behind closed doors, bypassing the hearings process or any assessment of the fiscal, labor market or environmental impact. The bill would grant amnesty to nearly every illegal alien in the United States as well as children and elderly parents who may be residing outside the country. Within 24 hours of filing an application, illegal aliens would be granted work authorization and relief from possible deportation, without any background checks. In addition, the legislation calls for the admission of 400,000 additional "guest workers" plus their dependent family members each year, some of whom will be permitted to remain permanently.


    In agreeing to this bill, the United States Senate has broken every promise that has been made to the American people. The bill reneges on promises that amnesty would never again be offered to people who are in this country illegally; it violates commitments that Congress has made to protect the interests of American workers; and it compromises the security of this nation by granting legal status to people who may pose a threat to the nation. Adding to the betrayal, this surrender of the public interest was negotiated by senators who had personally pledged, as recently as last year, never to agree to any bill that includes amnesty.


    This bill will have ramafication for all future generations and should be carefully thought out. There should be open hearings and input by any and all interested parties.

    This was a very good, well-thought out post.

  3. #12
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    Default Re: We will have our own serf-like workers

    Outside of the first paragraph, this is obviously a cut and paste job. Where did it come from hardcore? Although there are some kernels of truth in what you say, the cut and paste portion contains the usual bullshit rhetoric, exaggerations, and downright falsehoods we've come to expect from the anti-Mexican crowd, designed to make you angry and ignorant. "Immediate and irrevocable benefits?" Riiight. Think about what the author is suggesting: no reform. I don't see any alternate proposals. just opposition. Let's just keep this ugly hate at full steam. It supports a lot of media types. It divides the rest the rest of us. Before you weigh-in on how big business is out to lower wages, how about a modicum of accuracy in reporting what SB1348 stands for? Can you separate the wheat from the chaff, or is any mispresentation good enough so longer as demonizes and subjugates "them".
    Last edited by matclone; 05-20-2007 at 11:33 AM.

  4. #13

    Default Re: We will have our own serf-like workers

    Matclone, I am truly sorry if you take my post as hate speech. I am not driven by hate nor do I make hate filled posts. We have exchanged posts enough on the other forum for you to know this. I posted this thread because this bill scares the hell out of me.

    The first and last paragraphs are me talking. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th paragraphs were gotten from a blog link that I got from a post off the US and World Politics forum. I edited the heck out of those because I did not agree with where the blog was going as far as immigration policy. In retrospect I should not have used the 4th paragraph as it adds nothing to the argument. The direction the blog took was to arrest and deport all illegal aliens and that is why I deleted any reference to that.

    I have posted my take on immigration on multiple threads in the past. We have a major problem and this bill does very little to solve it. It will instead add a whole new set of long term problems. This bill is adding conditions to try and make all sides at least a little bit happy and because of that it will fail.

    The problem:
    There are approximately 12-20 million illegal aliens currently in the US with more entering every day. Most are here to help themselves and their families financially. A small minority is criminal element and a smaller number could be security threats. What can be done?

    First the borders must be secured. None of the proposed solutions will work unless this is accomplished. If our government can close off an area the size of Area 51 so that no one has ever successfully breached its security then we can secure our borders. It is simply a matter of will not politics. The amount of our tax dollars wasted on home land security boondoggles could have paid for a secure border and ports by now. Stemming the flow of illegal?s, stopping the drug smuggling, and intercepting and arresting security threats must be done.

    For the 12-20 million illegal?s that are here we must come up with a humanitarian solution. America turned a blind eye to their entering this country and partially shares the blame. They currently have no legal status and as such are open to exploitation by many different factions in this country. Once the border is secured we should have a 12 month period for them to register with immigrations. Those that are not criminals and are gainfully employed should be given a path that will lead to citizenship. They must admit to breaking our immigration laws with conditional discharges. The discharge would give them a period of time to learn English, get a GED at a minimum, and be able to pass the naturalization test to become citizens. Once they become citizens their records of breaking immigrations law would be destroyed. Those that do not register, have criminal records, or are national security threats will be quickly deported. Any employer who hires a non registered worker will face major fines and the possibility of jail time.

    The last issue to be resolved is to simplify the process for legal immigration to this country. Waiting 10, 20, even 30 years is just not acceptable. The requirements should be fair and simple and answers to applicants should be given in a timely manner.

    Our laws and government are steeped in the belief of fairness to all. It is their responsibility to come up with a fair and equitable solution for all the people affected by the current mess. Big business and its lobbyist need to be excluded. Capitalism has no heart and is not driven by fairness. A new class of unskilled and under educated workers would serve their purposes just fine. Drive down wages and benifits to all working class families. Once that is accomplished they will begin importing more skilled and educated workers to drive down wages and benefits for the white collar class. It is our elected officials that are given the power to temper the coldheartness of greed with the kindness that is our constitution and bill of rights. If they fail in this obligation then perhaps it has become time for the many to wield their power in the voting booth.

    As I stated in the beginnig of this post S. 1348 scares me silly. Worst case it will erode the middle class in this country to working poor. I have never seen a bill with as much potential harm as this. We can do better, we must do better.
    Last edited by hardcore; 05-20-2007 at 07:55 PM.

  5. #14
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    Default Re: We will have our own serf-like workers

    hardcore, I know you are a reasonable person and have good intentions. I just couldn't help railing against that other stuff. Although I don't necessarily agree with all your solutions, your last post is a lot more reasonable because it is you talking, instead of those who have a specific stake in demonizing our brothers and sisters to the south and misrepresenting what SB 1348 stands for. In fact, your proposals sound a lot like what's in SB1348. For example, someone in authority (the President?) has to certify that the border is secure (what you're asking for) before any citizenship provisions kick in. The immigrants are also supposed to turn themselves in to some authority (what you're asking for). Your criteria for citizenship (sans the GED) are already requirements. I'm not sure why you say this proposal scares you except that you've been misinformed. If so inclined, I recommend you call or write your Senators and tell them what you think (your second message).

  6. #15

    Default Re: We will have our own serf-like workers

    I have already contacted my representatives.

    While I do agree with some of the provisions there are others that spell disaster. There is the potential of having 100 million plus new unskilled workers in this country within 10 years under this plan. This will drive wages and benifits down. It is taking two workers in a family now to maintain the American dream of a good middle class life. Will the norm soon become two wage earners working two full time jobs each to maintain that standard of living? WalMart and the Restraunt Owners Association lobbied hard for these reforms. Instead of paying a little more to get good workers they instead see a pool of exploitable workers just south of the border that fit their need. High tech firms also had a hand in this agreement. The likes of IBM and Oracle want cheap college educated workers from other countries to work at lower pay then college educated Americans are willing to accept. If there is really a shortage then they should be working with colleges to turn out more grads instead of spending that money lobbying politicians to import those workers.

    Middle class America has been under assault since the Regan years. This bill in its current form will be the knockout blow. There are workable solutions that can be achieved but only if it is reached through politicians working in the best interest of the people and not catering to the needs of big business.

  7. #16
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    Default Re: We will have our own serf-like workers

    I understand your concerns. However, I don't agree with all your conclusions.

    "100 million unskilled" sounds like a highly speculative number, and lacking some credible estimates that might be in Congress now, but which I don't have, all I can say is, from my experience watching this, it's SOP for the anti-Mexican crowd to come up with wildly exaggerated numbers, without any basis for support, and they've been doing this for years.

    From my reading, undocumented immigrants fill a need for unskilled labor that is not met by the native population. It might be in Holzer or Scaliano's testimony here: http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearing.cfm?id=1851. One of them said the education of the native population has gone up over the decades so there is a smaller pool of unskilled labor. And in fact, if you see Cheswick's testimony (who is the least favorable to the effects of undocumented immigration), you'll see he talks about high school kids (not working adults) being in competition. So there's some inconsistency in your claim that the middle class is being threatened (which does not consist of unskilled uneducated labor), and your claim that we will be flooded by unskilled workers. They aren't really in competition.

    I'm not aware of anything in the bill that would increase the number of college educated foreigners. It seems they're already in demand because we don't have enough native workers to fill certain jobs. Moreover, they have been able to more readily enter under work visas, that the unskilled and uneducated can't get.

    It seems clear to me that this bill is an attempt to solve a broken immigration system. Although I agree in principle that corporate interests tend to rule the day, I don't think that's all that's behind this bill (a strict guest worker program a la Bush would be most in their favor, but the present bill is clearly a result of negotation and compromise).

    I fail to see how an immigration bill marks the "end of the middle class". It's funny how people are so worked up about this, but when it comes to NAFTA, or unions laws, labor rights in general, off-shoring, and outsourcing--all which affect the things you mention, I hear nary a peep. Which leads me to believe, there are powerful interests in this country (not saying this includes you),who have a vested stake in hating immigrants. Historically and politically, we can see this kind of divisive stategy has worked very well in the past vis a vis working white people and blacks. Get them angry at blacks (or immigrants), and they are less likely to focus on the forces that are really driving down their wages and causing jobs to disappear.

  8. #17
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    Default Re: We will have our own serf-like workers

    I see the "attack on the middle class" argument is making the rounds, as evidence by this morning's newspaper. It's funny, I didn't realize until now that immigrants were competing with the middle class.

    http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/d...mmig.html#more

  9. #18

    Default Re: We will have our own serf-like workers

    Hardcore,

    Your points are very good. American companies assisted these people in breaking the law by employing them, and the US government ingnored the problem. Those people who came in under the old system deserve a chance to stay, but we should not establish a quest worker program. A guest worker program would only harm American workers, and create an more class oriented society.

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