r.payton@att.net

Thanks for mentioning Wm the Bastard though-until he came along if you weren't of noble birth you mattered not at all -HE TOOK the world in 1066 . Changing European traditions forever .

WrestlingTerp

Whew, an awful lot to chew on here.

First of all, the French aren't as inept as they are made out to be. It's sort of fun to pick on them, but the facts don't support it.

While they may have arrived a bit late to the American Revolution, it was their naval presence that turned the tide and forced the British to surrender. Americans lost most of the battles, but won the war. Note this happened in reverse to us in Vietnam, but that was a war that the politicians fought from home. We win the wars that the military is allowed to fight.

WWI was a meat grinder that was fought primarily, and at a huge cost, in France. There are only so many men a country can feed into battle. WE arrived late to the party and our presence turned the tide. The Germans knew this would happen and tried to force deciding offensives to prevent this since they were spent too, and their economy was in tatters.

WWII was one in which France tried to fight the previous war. They actually had some of the best armor on the world, but didn't use it effectively. And do remember that we Americans tried to sit on the sidelines as long as possible before we were forced into a war that had been going on for nearly a decade prior to our entry.

Now I'm not sure who "Baron" is but he is enough of an arse to mention things selectively. Note that the British, Dutch, and others were beaten by the Japanese. They knew that, once we entered a protracted war, they had little chance of winning more than a negotiated settlement.

While the US hardly won the WORLD WAR by ourselves, Britain had little chance of survival without our help. France was occupied or governed by the puppet Vichy, so they were already done. Also thanks to the Nazi leadership's incompetence in opening a second front.

As for your revisionist opinion that we don't recognize the contributions of African American's to our military history, I guess you haven't READ our military history. We also had invaluable contributions from other minority groups in this country. During WWII even Japanese-Americans, who were shamefully placed in camps, volunteered to fight for their country.

Finally, it is easily forgotten that we were at war with Iraq for a decade before the current conflict. France wasn't opposed to the war on any moral grounds, but because of their financial dealings with Saddam. Saddam Hussein was every bit the Satan that Hitler was. History would not have looked kindly on letting him remain in power.

By the way Baron, we easily won both Iraqi wars, with help from the British, our best allies in the World, among others. However, we didn't learn our lessons from the past, such as in Vietnam, and did not have an end game planned. And you further show your ignorance with your shopping mall comment, especially when you juxtapose that with your assertion about Americans only visiting the Eiffel Tower. But 6 years in France must make you an expert.

__________________
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!”

Baron

lol 6 yrs man yeah and im also french so yes as a matter of a fact that does make me an expert. And yes thank you for clarifying those points. No need to insult i was only saying this due to the fact that u insulted my country. What's more the victory in Iraq is only on an official scale i wouldn't say the insurgency is losing. how was I being selective? I mentioned facts and american involvement and am simply pointing out that the US in reality in comparison to France has a very short and frankly unimpressive military history. What's more yes i have read about your history and have you ever read "I have a dream" by Dr Luther King - yes that was in 1963 but its only today that you are beginning to wake up to the phenomenal inequities that exist between Blacks and whites and hopefully won't elect McCain who frankly will do nothing but worsen the situation economically and politically. Funny you say best allies in the world. due to the fact that they are pulling out of Iraq and are hence admitting that it was a mistake, as is Australia who thank god finally realised that they had no purpose there. What's more it was not the Americans who liberated Paris but the french resistance. What's more the arrival of American troops in WWI turned the war on a moral scale not truly on a military scale as the Germans were exhausted after their spring offensives and American troops weren't on the front until July 4 (funnily enough) 1918 and that the major part of the German offensives was passed. What's more America isnt't in Iraq to bring freedom and emancipation to the poor Iraqis but to protect its oil interests because frankly the Iraqis are a lot worse off atm in the civil war climate than before. True Sadam was indeed a scumbag to say the least but invading was perhaps not the best option especially since funnily enough "hey they aint got no nucs after all... damn i really thought they did " Now I'm not trying to offend anyone but don't make unfounded insults. What's more i wasn't saying all americans do the cliche thing - i know a whole group of friends in france who are americans and live there - but I don't get the impression many of you guys know France that well

WrestlingTerp

Hold on there Pierre, I didn't insult France. I was trying to point out facts. Again you like to spin them a bit.

WWI. I stated that the German offenses were initiated because they knew of the impending US involvement. It was their intention to make an effort to win a war they realized couldn't be won once the US entered the conflict. But while you are at it, please mention the widespread desertions and mutinies by the French starting in 1917. So many that France started to execute deserters and even execute Polish allies.

You continue to insult the United States and ignore so many facts that don't fit your profile of this Nation. You claim a lack of wisdom, yet ignore the fact that the US was behind the formation of the League of Nations, hence the United Nations. The Marshall Plan was in sharp contrast to the French and British need for retribution in the Treaty of Versailles that laid the foundation for growth of National Socialism in Germany. When that blew up in your faces there was once again the call for the United States to come to your aid.

WWII. Not sure where you read a claim that the US liberated Paris. The US held back our troops so that DeGaulle could have the honor of leading French troops for the formal liberation of Paris. Frankly I see nothing wrong with allowing an ally to enter their capitol city. Sixty years later you want to turn that into something is wasn't.

You don't like the US military record? I suspect our win-loss record is a heck of a lot better than that of France.

As for Iraq, you demonstrate that you know little about what occurred or any germaine facts. Here's one for you. The US imports less than 20% of our oil from the Persian Gulf. Our largest source of domestic oil imports if from Canada. By contrast, France imported 2/3 of their oil in 2000 from the Persian Gulf. Yeah, the French were concerned about their moral conscience...

The US was in a de facto war with Iraq since the First Gulf War. The issue was less nuclear weapons (pay attention) than weapons of mass destruction. Did our intelligence fail us in getting precise information? Sure, but ask the Kurds about Hussein's use of these weapons in the past. Or the Iranians for that matter. We were placing our military in harms way over Iraq for a decade, while dealing with Hussein's intransigence by ignoring international sanctions.

Whether Iraq is worse or better off depends on what you read and who you ask. Learning to govern oneself is not a quick process. Iraq is a nation (a contrived one due to former colonial rulers drawing lines on maps versus using social and geopolitical boundaries) that has only had self rule for very short periods in their history. They ARE much more capable of managing internal strife than they were just one year ago. They DID hold free elections.

As for race relations in the US. It isn't just a Black-White issue, but one of many colors and cultures. To claim we are just waking up to racial issues is pure BS. I suggest that current US teenagers and young people are more color-blind than any time in our history. But I guess the race riots in France in recent years didn't occur? Then again, France will be a predominately Muslim country within a couple of decades, so get used to it.

The coming Presidential election? You aren't a US citizen so you don't have a vote.

__________________
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!”

Tight-Waist

"I'd rather have two German divisions in front of me than one French division behind me."

General George S. Patton, 1944

Baron

lol this is getting fun... i would also like to point out the number of desertions from the Iraq conflict... and yes the french troops did mutiny but hey try being in the most murderous war up to date in history (yes sorry you wouldn't have been able to relate to that at the time) and having just suffered the brunt of German attacks at Verdun where the French held them off for several months before victory and diverting troops to the Somme. What's more German troops subsequently underwent mass surrender and mutiny in one day 16000 troops surrendered. Riiight the league of nations... yea you invented it but then refused to join it preferring to isolate yourselves - "The problem is that Americans would like to be independent of the rest of the world ... Except the world ain't that way. Trying to be independent of the rest of the world is to commit suicide." Ben(jamin William) Bova. You held back from Paris because Charles De Gaulle wanted to restrict the Americanisation of France as you guys seem to enjoy liberating countries but then forgetting to leave. What's more can you truly believe that Bush of all people was thinking in terms of the interests of Iraqi neighbors or the Iraqis themselves. What's more oil reserves in Canada and Alaska are over mined and exploited whereas the Persian gulf still possesses virgin fields. Ignoring international sanctions... that's sort of what Hitler did throughout the lead up to WWII... whats more you guys are great at giving sanctions but hey when it comes to paying up yourselves... yeah not great.. Yes i would also like to remind you that the Iraqi people are a far more ancient people than the Americans (not counting natives of course) and were functioning as a community long before western culture decided to pervert them. Yes it does depend who you ask but I'd say that the most relevant source would be the Iraqis themselves and the major part of the population reject American presence (of course what I meant there was occupation but shhhh not meant to say that). Yeahhh free elections WOOT go puppet government!

Whats more the French find the American view of religious debate in France and rioting highly amusing.... American news images were shown of tanks going through Paris and of muslim massacres... well shit man i must have slept through it all cos I didn't see a thing... and what's more the riots in france (which were restricted to the suburbs of some major cities) were not so much around religion as around unemployment. The religion issue was based on the fact that France banned head scarves and turbans in schools... which is logical cos the government also bans crosses and even in some schools G-strings.... O and btw... my name is not pierre... O and also in those news flashes loved American Geography knowledge of France... Paris somewhere near Marseilles and Toulouse in the North...YEAH!
o yeah and cultural segregation... "What, to the American slave, is your Fourth of July? I answer: A day that reveals to him, more than all other days of the year, the gross injustices and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him your celebration is a sham." Frederick Douglass whats more france is a multicultural nation and multireligious... there is no religion of state and muslims and catholics alike are free to worship... actually your ratio of victories would in fact be worse than the french... france has the longest military history in the world and has also had the most military victories in history we also have the most amount of military inventions and its the British that are second not the Americans...

"America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization." Georges Clemenceau

"You may be sure that the Americans will commit all the stupidities they can think of, plus some that are beyond imagination." General Charles De Gaulle

Baron

anyhow i would like to point out that all this is in the name of an entertaining debate and not actually insulting any cultures or causing a forum war (shit that sounds nerdy lol)

WrestlingTerp

Discussions with "Baron" remind me of the old adage: Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience....

As for the press reporting on ethnic riots in France. I guess you did sleep through it. This from the BBC (since you have your head up your butt, this is the BRITISH Broadcasting Network):

"French violence hits fresh peak

Police say they were ambushed by a mob in Grigny A night of rioting in France has left 1,408 vehicles burnt out and resulted in 395 arrests - the highest tolls yet in 11 nights of unrest. Ten policemen were injured by shots and stones when they confronted 200 rioters in the Paris suburb of Grigny, with two policemen seriously hurt.

President Jacques Chirac has said restoring order is his top priority. "

Oh, by the way, nice job in the Junior Worlds by the two french wrestlers who had the courage to even compete, though they both were one-and-done.

The French suck at any sport other than playing Lawn Fairies, and even there they have to import players to field a competitive team. Head butts aside by the natives.... After being occupied so many times, you'd think the French would be more gracious losers...

__________________
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!”

Baron

u know wat i really agree with you... must be terrible having to bring people down to your level

someone's getting annoyed... wat did i do, perturb your sense of order? talk about not being able to have a debate... ok then maybe u need to research your geography a bit more Grigny is a suburb of paris and in Paris suburbs are far from the actual centre of the city theyre almost towns of their own. the car burnings affected very few inhabitants. It was smaller than the mine strikes in Britain during Thatcher. O and I seem to remember that the french hold the record for the fastest 100 m swim as well as were soccer world champions in 1998 and then in finals in 2006 and beet the all blacks in rugby last year in the rugby world cup and have also got some of the best boxers and Judo players in the world... along with fencing and cycling.

an idiot? so let me get this straight... i have answered all your arguments with fresh arguments and have produced significant facts. o i get it its the old american thing - do as I say but not as I do... only you are allowed to offer arguments because your from some college in the US

For the sport you guys are pathetic at rugby or soccer as you call it and btw 1 we were not loosing when Zidanne head-butted Matetarzi - it was 1 all and we were going into overtime (o btw u wouldnt know so 1 all means each side had scored a goal - new word i know) and 2 Materazi had just insulted his mother, sisters and children seriously - thats bad sportsmanship. But the Italians are great at that in soccer - they play falling over... still better than the US who need to get british players to play for them and still aren't ever noticed in the world cup. wats more France is the European nation that has made the most invasions in military history... Germany and Britain cannot even compare.

O and i get why you watch the BBC... information from London is bound to be better quality than from your ABC