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Thread: Nazi Germany-American connection

  1. #19
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    Default Re: Nazi Germany-American connection

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    Not to change the subject, but an oft-quoted figure (if my memory is correct) that I've read is that Stalin let 30 million Russians starve to death in the 30s or so. That would certainly be more than 5% of the population. If you have knowledge otherwise, please set the record straight, Big.

    matclone,

    Right there your statement is incorrect. Most of the people that died from famine were Ukrainians, not Russians.

    Another argument is who gives you these statistics? Inflation of numbers is not uncommon. A more common number is between 5 and 10 million.

    Many historians assert that the disruption caused by collectivization was largely responsible for major famines. The 1932-1933 famine in Ukraine and the Kuban regions has been termed the Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор). According to Alan Bullock, "the total Soviet grain crop was no worse than that of 1931... it was not a crop failure but the excessive demands of the state, ruthlessly enforced, that cost the lives of as many as five million Ukrainian peasants." Stalin refused to release large grain reserves that could have alleviated the famine (and at the same time exporting grain abroad); he was convinced that the Ukrainian peasants had hidden grain away, and strictly enforced draconian new collective-farm theft laws in response.[19][10]

    Other historians hold it was largely the insufficient harvests of 1931 and 1932 caused by a variety of natural disasters that resulted in famine, with the successful harvest of 1933 ending the famine. [11]

    However, famine also affected various other parts of the USSR. The death toll from famine in the Soviet Union at this time is estimated at between five and ten million people. (The worst crop failure of late tsarist Russia, in 1892, caused 375,000 to 400,000 deaths.)[12]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin

  2. #20
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    Default Re: Nazi Germany-American connection

    A lower than 30 million number is also supported by looking at demographics:

    January 1897 (Russia): 125,640,000***
    1911(Russia): 167,003,000**
    January 1920 : 137,727,000*
    January 1926 : 148,656,000*
    January 1937: 162,500,000*
    January 1939: 168,524,000*
    June 1941: 196,716,000*
    January 1946: 170,548,000*
    January 1951: 182,321,000*
    January 1959: 209,035,000*
    January 1970: 241,720,000
    1985: 272,000,000
    July 1991: 293,047,571

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...e_Soviet_Union

    Note that Russian population decreased by 30 million between 1911 and 1920This includes the time during Russian Revolution and Civil war. This was way before Stalin took over power. This number could easily be blamed on Stalin.

    Note that during Stalin's rule, except for WWII, Soviet population increased. How could 30 million die under Stalin, yet the population increased? Impossible!

  3. #21

    Default Re: Nazi Germany-American connection

    Weren't they all citizens of "Soviet Union?" Do you mean to tell me in that great, and wonderful society that Russian blood was more important than Ukrainian blood? Doesn't sound very equal to me...

  4. #22
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    Default Re: Nazi Germany-American connection

    No, Ukranians were never Russian. They were Soviet people. They were not less important. It just so happened that most of the farming was done in Ukraine and that's where Stalin created collective farms.

  5. #23

    Default Re: Nazi Germany-American connection

    And the collective farms failed catastrophically and millions starved...

  6. #24
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    Default Re: Nazi Germany-American connection

    Quote Originally Posted by JensenS View Post
    And the collective farms failed catastrophically and millions starved...
    Yes Jensen but not because Stalin signed off the death order. Some of it was his incompetence and cruelty, some was a matter of circumstance. The whole world hated Soviet Union, richer farmers refused to accept the new system, and no new efficient system was in sight.

    In any case, in Iraq even more people would die if America didn't have all the technology to avoid killing more people and the medicine to treat the wounded and the money to distribute food.

    So, if Stalin should be likened to Hitler, so should be Bush.

  7. #25
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    Default Re: Nazi Germany-American connection

    Stalin was also a man that succeeded through Russian Revolution, Civil war, and World War II. He refused to save his son when his son was captured by Nazis. Stalin was responsible for Russian greatness in freestyle wrestling. The man achieved a lot despite his terrible shortcomings, much more than Bush ever could.

    And lets not forget Stalin came from a very poor family.

  8. #26
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    Default Re: Nazi Germany-American connection

    Big, your arguments about the numbers sound reasonable. I don't know where I got the 30 million figure. I used to read a lot of "conservative" literature, definitely, anti-Soviet, so I probably got it there. Maybe a Paul Johnson or Daniel Pipes history or maybe in National Review.

    But are you telling us Stalin wasn't a sadistic, cold-blooded dictator who murdered a lot of people? How was he involved with freestyle wrestling or did someone else kickstart it that just happened to be under his rule?

  9. #27
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    Default Re: Nazi Germany-American connection

    matclone,

    Stalin had a lot on his plate. One of his problems was constant fear that he would get taken over or fail as a leader of Soviet Union. Many countries and even people within Soviet Union wanted to destroy communism.

    Stalin had a number of people taking care of "perceived threats" and often Stalin did not even know himself what was going on.

    I would say Stalin was more overwhelmed than sadistic. I don't think he even realized how harsh some methods were.

    One of the main guys that led the Purges for Stalin was Lavrentiy Beria, another Georgian:

    Beria at the NKVD

    An official poster eulogising BeriaIn August 1938 Stalin brought Beria to Moscow as deputy head of the People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs (NKVD), the ministry which oversaw the state security and police forces. Under Nikolai Yezhov, the NKVD carried out prosecution of the perceived enemies of the state known as the Great Purge, that affected millions of people. By 1938, however, the purge had become so extensive that it was damaging the infrastructure of the Soviet state, its economy and armed forces, and Stalin had decided to wind the purge down. In September Beria was appointed head of the Main Administration of State Security (GUGB) of the NKVD, and in November he succeeded Yezhov as head of NKVD (Yezhov was executed in 1940). The NKVD itself was then purged, with half its personnel replaced by Beria loyalists, many of them from the Caucasus.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beria

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