I never said race doesn't exist today nor did I say what happened in the past doesn't affect the present. I don't think that white people who had nothing to do with slavery should pay for what happened nor do I think blacks who were not enslaved should gain from it. We should learn from it and recognise it was a horrible way to treat people and we recognize the ignorance of slavery and the fact that it took until 1964 to get anything done about racism. I don't think we should forget because we would be doomed to repeat our mistakes but if we cant forgive ourselves for the transgressions of our forefathers we can never move forward. Like wise if the black community can not move past what was done to their forefathers they can not move forward in any real way.
If we never move out from under the shadows of our past we will never reach the light of our future.
That's implied in nearly everything you say.Originally Posted by ugly
Again, that's the implication. See what follows:Originally Posted by ugly
Sounds to me like you saying, once slavery ended, we could wash our hands of the whole affair, with no regard for future repercussions.Originally Posted by ugly
How are you, who had nothing to do with slavery, paying for what happened? Be specific if you can. Is someone taking your money? Your job? Your life? Your chance for an education? For your children's education? People of color have paid and paid again in these ways. How are you being made to pay? And how do people of color "gain" from the past? Like, in poor schools? In high rates of incarceration? Be specific. Is "gain" in this sense like Richardson's notion that not being fired from your job based on your race is a "privilege"?
Glad you could take us from the time of slavery until 1964. So, did racism end then? No, you said above that you never said it ended (although you did not admit that it hasn't). How would you know when racism ended if it did? Or is it your position that racism will always exist to some degree but the worse offense is that people will complain about it?Originally Posted by ugly
Exactly my view.Originally Posted by ugly
Wait. I thought you said that you never said that racism ended. So, why the focus on the transgressions of our forefathers? Sounds to me like you're saying all the bad stuff ended in 1868, or 1964 (I'm not sure when). Why the mention of forgiveness? We're forgiving ourselves how? I think I understand this concept: I told someone a lie yesterday that caused them a great deal of harm, but today I'm not going to be all that concerned about it because they'll never get ahead if I mention that I did them wrong.Originally Posted by ugly
Are you suggesting black and white ignore our past? Ignore our history? A conservative (if he were honest) would never make that argument. Why are you painting the black community with a broad brush? It seems to me a number of black people who are now successful, did not, and are not, ignoring the past. So how in the world did they get ahead?Originally Posted by ugly
If we ignore the past, we will make the same mistakes in the future.Originally Posted by ugly
Last edited by matclone; 03-06-2008 at 06:07 PM.
I am not in your race of "power," and I hope that those with an opinion of race similar to yours do not rise to decision-making positions in this country. I have always been taught that race is nothing more than a natural state of being. It entitles me to nothing and it can not make my life easier or harder -- I am the only one who has any bearing on that.
Those who must speak out about injustices of the past should quit living in the past. Our country has not seen racism as it was in the 1960s for some time. To say that racism is influential today is to degrade and mock what the Civil Rights movement was and did. Racism is nearly non-existent today -- that is coming from someone who is not part of your self-proclaimed "power" race (a term that makes no sense. There is no race in this country that is more powerful than any other. Only people are powerful, not races.)
Finally, I ask you to see people for who they are, not what color they are. You see mto have a hard time getting past race. I wonder what you would think if you saw me. Would you see me for what I have done and what I am trying to do, or would you see me as my skin color, as someone who deserves sympathy because I am not of your "power" race? I don't need sympathy. I only need to live.
Clone if you are married then you would understand that when you mess up even in a big way you have to move forward together or the marriage will fail. Also when you make a mistake if you try to apologize or reconcile for the wrong reasons it is not received kindly because the sincerity is not there. If your wife refuses to forgive you when you are sincere then you become unwilling to apologise. It is the same concept when it comes to race relations or any relationship really.
I don't understand what you mean by paying with conviction. Background: you said white people shouldn't have to "pay" for whatever happened in the past. You seem to be avoiding my conviction that we all are a product to some degree of our past.
Well you're still yielding a pretty broad brush ("many black people"), and invoked the usual buzz words ("entitled" "'someone' (we know who) thinks they deserve it"). You should be commended I suppose for not using the chief buzz word: "victim". But, in this manner you can make an argument for just about anything.
We all know (even I know) the theory you espouse. It's broadcast from coast to coast on talk radio and not a month goes by that there isn't a best seller (written for white people) on how black people need to stop playing the victim and pull themselves up by their bootstraps. You will not see a corresponding book about white people but never mind. We've had that discussion.
But, please show me where on the current NY Times Best-seller list there is a book "on how black people need to stop playing the victim and pull themselves up by their bootstraps." I have looked up this list ( http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/bo...=1&oref=slogin ) and have found no such book there -- none dealing with non-white races.
BUT, I HAVE found a LOT of books that target whites. Because you made an earlier claim that whites are the race of power, most publications must be about them (a common implied theme of your posts). An examination of the NY Times Best-seller list of Paperback Advice books ( http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/bo...peradvice.html ) shows us a number of books that say that whites (default race of power) need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps to become better parents and better people.
This country is not ALL against everyone who isn't white (I am proof of that). But, nevermind. We've already had that discussion.