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Thread: A Rant on Race

  1. #46
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    Default Re: A Rant on Race

    Quote Originally Posted by M Richardson View Post
    I do find it offensive when someone requires special priviledge based on ethnicity or skin color (or religion, sexual preference, etc.)
    Really? You call it a privilege (nay, a special privilege) that no one can fire you from your job because of your race or religion or (in Calif but not other places your sexuality)? You are offended by this?

  2. #47

    Default Re: A Rant on Race

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    ...When any race starts to create some type of exclusiveness or separate themselves based on race it becomes hard to see them as anything but that race or religion for that matter. ...

    What's wrong with a little pride? Are you also offended by St. Patrick's Day parades? Octoberfest? Tulip Time?
    "All my life I have tried to pluck a thistle and plant a flower wherever the flower would grow in thought and mind." -- Abraham Lincoln

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    Default Re: A Rant on Race

    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieJ2 View Post
    What's wrong with a little pride? Are you also offended by St. Patrick's Day parades? Octoberfest? Tulip Time?
    Nothing is wrong with pride and I am not offended I am just saying that it is hard to look beyond the race if the individuals of that race seperate themselves because of that reason. I think it is a true statement and one reason we will not move beyond race issues in this country or the world. Take the isue in Iraq, instead of being Iraqi's they seperate themselves in there little groups and are they are exclusive this causes major problems.

  4. #49
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    Default Re: A Rant on Race

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    Your first sentence is fine. The rest is horseshit.

    We have 400 years of racism in this country. Now, you want to (1) say it doesn't exist today and (2) whatever happened in the past has no bearing and no influence on our society today. Whatever. It's fine for you as a white man to proclaim everything is hunk dory now. You have the power. You've always had the power. And you continue to assert your power by reserving the right to decide when people of color can speak out about injustice, past or present.
    Clone

    I never said race doesn't exist today nor did I say what happened in the past doesn't affect the present. I don't think that white people who had nothing to do with slavery should pay for what happened nor do I think blacks who were not enslaved should gain from it. We should learn from it and recognise it was a horrible way to treat people and we recognize the ignorance of slavery and the fact that it took until 1964 to get anything done about racism. I don't think we should forget because we would be doomed to repeat our mistakes but if we cant forgive ourselves for the transgressions of our forefathers we can never move forward. Like wise if the black community can not move past what was done to their forefathers they can not move forward in any real way.


    If we never move out from under the shadows of our past we will never reach the light of our future.

  5. #50
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    Default Re: A Rant on Race

    Quote Originally Posted by ugly
    I never said race doesn't exist today
    That's implied in nearly everything you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by ugly
    nor did I say what happened in the past doesn't affect the present.
    Again, that's the implication. See what follows:

    Quote Originally Posted by ugly
    I don't think that white people who had nothing to do with slavery should pay for what happened nor do I think blacks who were not enslaved should gain from it.
    Sounds to me like you saying, once slavery ended, we could wash our hands of the whole affair, with no regard for future repercussions.

    How are you, who had nothing to do with slavery, paying for what happened? Be specific if you can. Is someone taking your money? Your job? Your life? Your chance for an education? For your children's education? People of color have paid and paid again in these ways. How are you being made to pay? And how do people of color "gain" from the past? Like, in poor schools? In high rates of incarceration? Be specific. Is "gain" in this sense like Richardson's notion that not being fired from your job based on your race is a "privilege"?

    Quote Originally Posted by ugly
    We should learn from it and recognise it was a horrible way to treat people and we recognize the ignorance of slavery and the fact that it took until 1964 to get anything done about racism.
    Glad you could take us from the time of slavery until 1964. So, did racism end then? No, you said above that you never said it ended (although you did not admit that it hasn't). How would you know when racism ended if it did? Or is it your position that racism will always exist to some degree but the worse offense is that people will complain about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by ugly
    I don't think we should forget because we would be doomed to repeat our mistakes
    Exactly my view.

    Quote Originally Posted by ugly
    but if we cant forgive ourselves for the transgressions of our forefathers we can never move forward.
    Wait. I thought you said that you never said that racism ended. So, why the focus on the transgressions of our forefathers? Sounds to me like you're saying all the bad stuff ended in 1868, or 1964 (I'm not sure when). Why the mention of forgiveness? We're forgiving ourselves how? I think I understand this concept: I told someone a lie yesterday that caused them a great deal of harm, but today I'm not going to be all that concerned about it because they'll never get ahead if I mention that I did them wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by ugly
    Like wise if the black community can not move past what was done to their forefathers they can not move forward in any real way.
    Are you suggesting black and white ignore our past? Ignore our history? A conservative (if he were honest) would never make that argument. Why are you painting the black community with a broad brush? It seems to me a number of black people who are now successful, did not, and are not, ignoring the past. So how in the world did they get ahead?

    Quote Originally Posted by ugly
    If we never move out from under the shadows of our past we will never reach the light of our future.
    If we ignore the past, we will make the same mistakes in the future.
    Last edited by matclone; 03-06-2008 at 06:07 PM.

  6. #51

    Default Re: A Rant on Race

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    Your first sentence is fine. The rest is horseshit.

    We have 400 years of racism in this country. Now, you want to (1) say it doesn't exist today and (2) whatever happened in the past has no bearing and no influence on our society today. Whatever. It's fine for you as a white man to proclaim everything is hunk dory now. You have the power. You've always had the power. And you continue to assert your power by reserving the right to decide when people of color can speak out about injustice, past or present.
    What is it about you, clone, that makes you so upset when people want equality? Why is it so much to ask that people expect racial equality? You apparently think that it is OK for non-white races to speak out and be proud of being non-white, then be upset when they are considered non-white, which is what they asked for in the first place. But, you don't think it is OK for whites to speak out in pride about their race and complain if they are not treated like non-whites (see affirmative action).

    I am not in your race of "power," and I hope that those with an opinion of race similar to yours do not rise to decision-making positions in this country. I have always been taught that race is nothing more than a natural state of being. It entitles me to nothing and it can not make my life easier or harder -- I am the only one who has any bearing on that.

    Those who must speak out about injustices of the past should quit living in the past. Our country has not seen racism as it was in the 1960s for some time. To say that racism is influential today is to degrade and mock what the Civil Rights movement was and did. Racism is nearly non-existent today -- that is coming from someone who is not part of your self-proclaimed "power" race (a term that makes no sense. There is no race in this country that is more powerful than any other. Only people are powerful, not races.)

    Finally, I ask you to see people for who they are, not what color they are. You see mto have a hard time getting past race. I wonder what you would think if you saw me. Would you see me for what I have done and what I am trying to do, or would you see me as my skin color, as someone who deserves sympathy because I am not of your "power" race? I don't need sympathy. I only need to live.

  7. #52
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    Default Re: A Rant on Race

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    That's implied in nearly everything you say.



    Again, that's the implication. See what follows:



    Sounds to me like you saying, once slavery ended, we could wash our hands of the whole affair, with no regard for future repercussions.

    How are you, who had nothing to do with slavery, paying for what happened? Be specific if you can. Is someone taking your money? Your job? Your life? Your chance for an education? For your children's education? People of color have paid and paid again in these ways. How are you being made to pay? And how do people of color "gain" from the past? Like, in poor schools? In high rates of incarceration? Be specific. Is "gain" in this sense like Richardson's notion that not being fired from your job based on your race is a "privilege"?



    Glad you could take us from the time of slavery until 1964. So, did racism end then? No, you said above that you never said it ended (although you did not admit that it hasn't). How would you know when racism ended if it did? Or is it your position that racism will always exist to some degree but the worse offense is that people will complain about it?



    Exactly my view.



    Wait. I thought you said that you never said that racism ended. So, why the focus on the transgressions of our forefathers? Sounds to me like you're saying all the bad stuff ended in 1868, or 1964 (I'm not sure when). Why the mention of forgiveness? We're forgiving ourselves how? I think I understand this concept: I told someone a lie yesterday that caused them a great deal of harm, but today I'm not going to be all that concerned about it because they'll never get ahead if I mention that I did them wrong.



    Are you suggesting black and white ignore our past? Ignore our history? A conservative (if he were honest) would never make that argument. Why are you painting the black community with a broad brush? It seems to me a number of black people who are now successful, did not, and are not, ignoring the past. So how in the world did they get ahead?



    If we ignore the past, we will make the same mistakes in the future.
    Clone there is a difference between remembering the past and living in it. You seem to want to live in it. When I say pay for the past I don't mean in a tangible sense I mean in the sense of conviction. As white people we are reminded of what our forefathers did and it is as if I was responsible for it, as if I enslaved someone. On the other hand there are many black people who believe that they are entitled to something because of what happened to their forefathers. Now I never said nor implied ( even though you disagree, but I think you must have failed reading comprehension) racism ended in the 1868 with the civil war or in 1964 with the civil rights amendment. Both of these were the start of change in our nation and while there is still much to be done it cant be done because we feel bad or because someone else thinks they deserve it. It has to be done because it is the right thing to do and that's it.

    Clone if you are married then you would understand that when you mess up even in a big way you have to move forward together or the marriage will fail. Also when you make a mistake if you try to apologize or reconcile for the wrong reasons it is not received kindly because the sincerity is not there. If your wife refuses to forgive you when you are sincere then you become unwilling to apologise. It is the same concept when it comes to race relations or any relationship really.

  8. #53
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    Default Re: A Rant on Race

    I don't understand what you mean by paying with conviction. Background: you said white people shouldn't have to "pay" for whatever happened in the past. You seem to be avoiding my conviction that we all are a product to some degree of our past.

    Well you're still yielding a pretty broad brush ("many black people"), and invoked the usual buzz words ("entitled" "'someone' (we know who) thinks they deserve it"). You should be commended I suppose for not using the chief buzz word: "victim". But, in this manner you can make an argument for just about anything.

    We all know (even I know) the theory you espouse. It's broadcast from coast to coast on talk radio and not a month goes by that there isn't a best seller (written for white people) on how black people need to stop playing the victim and pull themselves up by their bootstraps. You will not see a corresponding book about white people but never mind. We've had that discussion.

  9. #54

    Default Re: A Rant on Race

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    I don't understand what you mean by paying with conviction. Background: you said white people shouldn't have to "pay" for whatever happened in the past. You seem to be avoiding my conviction that we all are a product to some degree of our past.

    Well you're still yielding a pretty broad brush ("many black people"), and invoked the usual buzz words ("entitled" "'someone' (we know who) thinks they deserve it"). You should be commended I suppose for not using the chief buzz word: "victim". But, in this manner you can make an argument for just about anything.

    We all know (even I know) the theory you espouse. It's broadcast from coast to coast on talk radio and not a month goes by that there isn't a best seller (written for white people) on how black people need to stop playing the victim and pull themselves up by their bootstraps. You will not see a corresponding book about white people but never mind. We've had that discussion.
    Clone, you should really lay off the talk radio obsession. It doesn't prove anything (there is a LOT of stuff on talk radio -- the program I enjoy most is two sibling jokesters who also know a little about car repair. They don't seem to engage in the kinds of things you talk about). Just lumping everything you don't like under the label of talk radio just shows us that you don't know what you're talking about, so you need a catch-all to cover up your ignorance.

    But, please show me where on the current NY Times Best-seller list there is a book "on how black people need to stop playing the victim and pull themselves up by their bootstraps." I have looked up this list ( http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/bo...=1&oref=slogin ) and have found no such book there -- none dealing with non-white races.

    BUT, I HAVE found a LOT of books that target whites. Because you made an earlier claim that whites are the race of power, most publications must be about them (a common implied theme of your posts). An examination of the NY Times Best-seller list of Paperback Advice books ( http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/bo...peradvice.html ) shows us a number of books that say that whites (default race of power) need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps to become better parents and better people.

    This country is not ALL against everyone who isn't white (I am proof of that). But, nevermind. We've already had that discussion.

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