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Thread: Hey Swiftboaters!

  1. #19

    Default Re: Hey Swiftboaters!

    If you want to assume that I assume that you assume an assumption that I assume you voted for Bush both times, then that is an educated assumption on my part.

    You lost me there. Full disclosure - I voted for Bush both times, primarily because of who he was running against. Bush was a weak candidate, but I felt that he was the better choice, both years.

    Gore has always made my skin crawl, so I would never vote for him. Kerry didn't seem to have any firm beliefs; he was arrogant and condescending, and I just didn't like the guy, or his policies.

    I don't like Bush either, and I don't like what he's done in regards to increasing govt spending, torturing captives, and increasing govt oversight over our personal lives. Bush never was a conservative, and he has not governed like one.

    But all of that is irrelevant to the swiftboat charges, even though you'd like to connect the two. These were guys that served side by side with Kerry. Did you? People are pretty quick to call them all liars (you say they had "nothing"), and pretty quick to call people like me "easily persuaded". I wasn't there with Kerry, maybe you were? You seem to have it all figured out.

    Did any of you naysayers read the book, or are you just posting out of ignorance.

  2. #20

    Default Re: Hey Swiftboaters!

    If you want to assume that I assume that you assume an assumption that I assume you voted for Bush both times, then that is an educated assumption on my part.

    You lost me there. Full disclosure - I voted for Bush both times, primarily because of who he was running against. Bush was a weak candidate, but I felt that he was the better choice, both years.

    Gore has always made my skin crawl, so I would never vote for him. Kerry didn't seem to have any firm beliefs; he was arrogant and condescending, and I just didn't like the guy, or his policies.

    I don't like Bush either, and I don't like what he's done in regards to increasing govt spending, torturing captives, and increasing govt oversight over our personal lives. Bush never was a conservative, and he has not governed like one.

    my thoughts exactly!!

    But all of that is irrelevant to the swiftboat charges, even though you'd like to connect the two. These were guys that served side by side with Kerry. Did you? People are pretty quick to call them all liars (you say they had "nothing"), and pretty quick to call people like me "easily persuaded". I wasn't there with Kerry, maybe you were? You seem to have it all figured out.

    Did any of you naysayers read the book, or are you just posting out of ignorance.

    Great post man!!

  3. #21
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    Default Re: Hey Swiftboaters!

    I have looked at wikipedia (and I suggest you do so sometime) and read accounts on-line but, no, I haven't read the book. But if it looks, smells, and is packaged like a smear campaign, it is. Also, I have my military experience to give me some perspective. Just how do you tell the difference between pulp fiction and a pulitzer prize novel? Just how do you know difference between an infomercial and a documentary? If I say to you after 2 minutes of an infomercial, "This is an infomercial and it is worthless as proof of anything", do you tell me, "Wait, you have to watch the whole infomercial to find out and know for sure". No, I don't.

  4. #22

    Default Re: Hey Swiftboaters!

    If the book had been written by some random author, or a republican operative, or an anti-military group, then I'd be a lot more skeptical. But the book was written by a bunch of guys that served side by side with Kerry. They put their names and faces out in the public eye, knowing that they would be denigrated and called liars, after being silent for over 30 years. Why would they do that if they were just making up the story out of thin air?

    I read the book, and formed an opinion. The guys could be a bunch of liars, no question. But they could also be telling the truth.

  5. #23
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    Default Re: Hey Swiftboaters!

    What color was her dress ?

  6. #24

    Default Re: Hey Swiftboaters!

    "But the book was written by a bunch of guys that served side by side with Kerry. They put their names and faces out in the public eye"

    Side by side with Kerry huh?
    From Wikipedia:

    "Of the 3,500 Swift boat sailors who served in Vietnam, the names of some 250 appeared on the group's statement against Kerry; most did not serve at the same time or in the same place as Kerry.[8][9][10] Founding members of SBVT include Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann (retired), a former commander of Swift boat forces; Houston attorney John O'Neill, an officer who became commander of Swift Boat PCF 94 several months after Kerry's departure in 1969 and who appeared opposite Kerry in a televised 1971 debate between them on The Dick Cavett Show; and 13 other named veterans"

    "Several of those who joined SBVT during the 2004 campaign were officers who had previously praised Kerry's conduct during the Vietnam War. These included Division Commander Grant Hibbard, who wrote positive evaluations of Kerry, and Commander George Elliott, who submitted Kerry for a Silver Star."

    "Of those who served in Kerry's boat crew, only Stephen Gardner joined SBVT.[18] He was not present on any of the occasions when Kerry won his medals, including his Purple Hearts. Gardner appeared in two of the group's television advertisements"

    "All other living members of Kerry's crew supported his presidential bid, and some frequently campaigned with him as his self-described 'band of brothers'. Kerry crewmembers have disputed some of SBVT's various allegations: "totally false" (Drew Whitlow), "garbage" (Gene Thorson), and "a pack of lies" (Del Sandusky)"

    "No members of SBVT were aboard Kerry's boat during any of the incidents for which he was decorated. The only member of SBVT who was present at the Silver Star incident, Rood's crewmember Larry Clayton Lee, praised Kerry's tactics and stated that he earned his Silver Star; he stated that based on discussions with other SBVT members, he came to question whether Kerry deserved other medals for incidents at which he was not present.["

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_B...rans_for_Truth
    There's no such thing as a pretty good aligator wrestler.

  7. #25
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    Default Re: Hey Swiftboaters!

    They made the claim and put their names to it - is that comparable to the NY Times article on McCain - no.

  8. #26

    Default Re: Hey Swiftboaters!

    Side by side with Kerry huh?

    There are photos in the book of Kerry serving with these guys. You can believe your own eyes, or Wiki, which is only as good as the last person who edited it.

    By the way, I'm not saying that I am 100% convinced of their claims. But they do make a compelling case - one that shouldn't be dismissed as hokum without actually doing something other than clicking on Wiki.
    Last edited by Flop The Nuts; 02-22-2008 at 11:10 AM.

  9. #27
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    Default Re: Hey Swiftboaters!

    We know it's a smear campaign in part because there are a variety of disparate allegations against Kerry that kind of confuse matters, but all point to painting him as a bad guy. In other words, they're throwing mud in the hopes that something would stick, and, for some, it did.

    He supposedly came out against the war, maybe kissed Jane Fonda or something. So what? You have to give his actions context, including the time and place in which they occured.

    He allegedly was a primadonna or highfalutin' or something as a military officer. Again, so what? Who hasn't heard that sort of story about someone.

    The didn't earn the medal charge is the one that offends me greatly. Who are these people who say they are for the troops but turn around and denigrate someone's military achievement? I call them hypocrites and dupes. This charge, of course, was intended to plant the idea that Kerry was unethical--in the same way yesterday's story about McCain was intended to plant the idea that he is unethical. Smear. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

    When I walk into my local book store and go to the political section, there are a plethora of books, like: "The right-wing religious fascists are taking over America" or "The liberal fascists are destroying America". Last I checked Glenn Beck's book was near the top of the best seller list. All of these are obviously political propaganda books, as is "Unfit to Command". The equivalent of an infomercial between two covers. Only a single point of view, and that view is to make someone or ones look bad. Another way to tell a smoke job is to see if these non-fiction books cite to references. If they don't, that's a sign you maybe ought to hold onto your money--unless you just want to be told something that validates a view you already hold and you are not too particular about the evidence.

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