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Thread: McCain needs a miracle

  1. #55

    Default Re: McCain needs a miracle

    Quote Originally Posted by Flop The Nuts View Post
    It's a ridiculous argument to ask about a Senator's track record? What exactly do you feel should be on the table? Is it enough to just trust the candidate on what they tell you they are going to do, with no evidence that they might be up to the task?

    He's an articulate, good-looking guy who hasn't been around long enough to F something up. That's about it.
    Yes, it is a ridiculous argument. You guys won't let him win either way.

    Besides, why try to convince a two time Bush voter that a democrat is the better candidate for America?

  2. #56

    Default Re: McCain needs a miracle

    Quote Originally Posted by slayer View Post
    Yes, it is a ridiculous argument. You guys won't let him win either way.

    Besides, why try to convince a two time Bush voter that a democrat is the better candidate for America?
    I'm not looking for you to convince me of anything. I just find it comical (and a bit of a desperate argument) that a person's record of achievement shouldn't weigh into the decision to vote for him or not.

    But, I'm sure if the Republican candidate had no experience, you'd be sticking up for him, right?

  3. #57
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    Default Re: McCain needs a miracle

    But, I'm sure if the Republican candidate had no experience, you'd be sticking up for him, right?

    I would. But then again my votes for President have been; Anderson (I was young), Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, and Kerry. So I can't really be pigeonholed.
    I am 49, bald, ugly, and don't own a single cool thing. Kids like me though.

  4. #58

    Default Re: McCain needs a miracle

    Quote Originally Posted by sgallan View Post
    But, I'm sure if the Republican candidate had no experience, you'd be sticking up for him, right?

    I would. But then again my votes for President have been; Anderson (I was young), Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, and Kerry. So I can't really be pigeonholed.
    Scott, I've read your postings, and I wasn't directing that question towards you. I agree that you can't be pigeonholed.

    My only point here, which I may not have been clear about, is this. Obama's lack of experience is something that he (and his supporters) have to overcome. He may well do so - only time will tell. But, instead of saying things analagous to "so what, experience doesn't matter", I would expect his supporters to come up with a more positive argument. If not, you are never going to win over the "experience matters" crowd.

    I think experience does matter, but I'd much rather see experience as a Governor or at least as a Mayor of a very large city. I don't think Senatorial experience is a huge plus for a candidate, so McCain, HRC, and Obama all have to overcome that. Obama has the least experience, so he has the largest cross to bear.

  5. #59
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    Default Re: McCain needs a miracle

    Quote Originally Posted by sgallan
    I would just for once, have a discussion on why one person should get the vote over another person, based on real merits, policy positions, values, and so on, instead of just the latest media driven policy points.

    Is this possible anymore? Or is it all "spin" and "crossfire" mentality anymore?
    Despite Gallan's call for a discussion of merits, policy, etc. Flop brings us back to the spin, alternately calling it "no experience" and "lack of experience", which like "not doing something" can be stretched to mean just about anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flop the Nuts
    My only point here, which I may not have been clear about, is this. Obama's lack of experience is something that he (and his supporters) have to overcome. He may well do so - only time will tell. But, instead of saying things analagous to "so what, experience doesn't matter", I would expect his supporters to come up with a more positive argument. If not, you are never going to win over the "experience matters" crowd.
    Experience obviously is a factor to be weighed. But when it's said the candidate's "lack of experience" (amorphously defined) disqualifies him for office, accompanied by rhetorical strawmen about "experience doesn't matter" (obviously no one would argue experience doesn't matter) then we're probably dealing with a spinning-like argument.

    As for specific experience, I'd say being in Congress is a positive marker. On a previous post I mentioned Obama's education (Harvard Law) and alluded to his past work (with which I'm not totally familiar), but these carry some positive weight too.

    His time in Congress (a first-termer) and particularly his age (40-something) suggest less experience than the others. But then John Kennedy was even younger than Obama.

    By all accounts and appearances Obama has the intellect (one of the things needed) for the position--meaning he has the background and the ability to deal with a variety of complex issues affecting our nation. But, so do the other candidates. I mention this again, because the importance of this factor was made prominent by the present occupant, and because it is something that can help overcome a candidate's lesser experience.
    Last edited by matclone; 02-25-2008 at 12:33 PM.

  6. #60

    Default Re: McCain needs a miracle

    Flop brings us back to the spin, alternately calling it "no experience" and "lack of experience", which like "not doing something" can be stretched to mean just about anything.

    I'm not trying to spin. If a candidate doesn't have experience as a governor, or an impressive legislative record as a Senator, then we have to rely on other things, many of which you mentioned. Education, presumed intellect, and comparision to other young Presidents. That's ok, but we're left with hope at that point. Hope that Obama can follow through on what he is saying; hope that he has the managerial and leadership instincts to make change happen; hope that he can translate words into action at some point.

    He may be the best president ever, who knows? I think he'll be the next President, so I'm asking these questions out of concern as much as anything else. He's going to have the benefit of democrat leadership in the House and Senate, so the skids will be greased for him.

  7. #61
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    Default Re: McCain needs a miracle

    Well, the whole experience question can also be expressed as: how well do we know him? Let's hope he is everything he appears to be.

    I'm not sure why Republicans in certain measure seem to be conceding the general election. I think they have a strong candidate. Granted, the tide seems to be flowing against them but McCain is formidable. If they'd offered someone like Huckabee instead he'd probably be trounced.
    Last edited by matclone; 02-25-2008 at 01:02 PM.

  8. #62
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    Default Re: McCain needs a miracle

    I'm not sure why Republicans in certain measure seem to be conceeding the general election. I think they have a strong candidate. Granted, the tide seems to be flowing against them but, you know, if they offered someone like Huckabee he'd probably be thoroughly trounced.
    I don't think they will in the end, but if it were to happen, my guess is that it's because he's not "Conservative" enough. America has been so polarized and "Limbaugh'd", that if a candidate has even a couple of more liberal leanings, he's not a Republican. Funnily, even over on themat.com, when the "repubs" took a "Conservative/Liberal" quiz, and they end up having liberal leanings themselves...but everyone has this image of what the "Perfect" Republican looks like, and since McCain doesn't fit that mold, they're hating his possible nomination.

    It's the divisiveness within America that was pretty much created in the last few elections by both parties. For some reason, the ability and desire to reach across the aisle is now seen as a weakness and not a strength.
    Jacob Schlottke---Gone too soon, and the world is a little less bright because of it. RIP, brother.

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  9. #63
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    Default Re: McCain needs a miracle

    I'm reading a really great book now: The Age of American Unreason, in which the author, Susan Jacoby, suggests that the polarization has happened, in part, because of the general dumbing down in America that's occurred in our lifetimes--making it easier for people with agendas to dominate the conversation.

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