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Thread: Division is a capitalist conspiracy

  1. #10
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    Default Re: Division is a capitalist conspiracy

    Smith also lived like 400 years ago when high rates of poor kids dying was accepted occurence.

  2. #11
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    Default Re: Division is a capitalist conspiracy

    The biggest difference is that Smith said it is ok if people are dying from starvation since that is the market forces at work while today lassez-fair strategists claim the market forces will not allow such trouble to happen.

  3. #12

    Default Re: Division is a capitalist conspiracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Big View Post
    In many instances Mill simply describes what happens in capitalism and in communism. He then discusses the positives and the negatives of both.

    In the end Mill feels communism/socialism is a better system overall but capitalism is a better system right now because people are not educated enough or the right way to understand that caring about the community would eventually achieve a better environment than ruthless competition.

    Mill feels in order for communism to work people would have to be educated differently right from birth. He feels this will happen eventually but not until people realize it as a good system by going through many hardships of capitalism. Mill feels people will accept communism only if/when something terribly bad happens due to capitalist principles
    After reading your quotes of Mill, it appears that his assumption (better educated people will see that caring is better) is based on all people holding the same values and that all people are motivated by one definition of "caring."

    Do we agree that different people can hold different values?

    Do we agree that people can have different definitions of what is considered caring and what is not? Or, could the way one cares for another differ from one person to the next?

    I think the answer to both of theose questions is 'yes.' Because people can have different values and they can differ in their definition and form of caring, to follow your interpretation of Mill's socialism would be to force everyone to think the same -- to hold the same values.

    You have already spoken out against this -- America "forcing" the middle east to adopt democracy, American Christians "forcing" non-Christians in the US to celebrate Christmas, etc.

    What we see in capitalism is the most protected form of freedom. We also see a system where resources are directed to where their owners find them most dear and needed. We also see the most equitable (not fair -- that word is subjective) distribution of resources.

    Capitalism allows everyone to have different values (which they will) and allows everyone to make decisions for themselves. Remember, too, that capitalism allows people to be "caring," as Mill states is desirable, but it doesn't force them to do so. "Caring" and capitalism aren't mutually exclusive. Capitalism allows you to express your caring any way you wish.

  4. #13
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    Default Re: Division is a capitalist conspiracy

    If you educate people from birth in the same way, they will all have common values to an extent. Just think of religion. Most of those that are born to people preaching Christianity think its the best thing in the world. The same for Muslims and other religions.

  5. #14

    Default Re: Division is a capitalist conspiracy

    Is it not possible that people educated in the same way can still have different thoughts? My brothers and I were brought up in the same house, by the same parents, and went to the same schools. But, we have different thoughts and different values.

    Using your religion example, we can see that not all Christians who are educated the same way value the same things -- look at the different denominations that exist, or jus tthe differences between people in the same denominations.

    But, I don't think it can be denied that people can have different values, despite similar education. Besides, in your world of similar education, how do we decide whose values get taught and whose do not? At that point, someone's values are declared more important than someone else's. Thus far, you have railed against that (which I admire).

    Even so, people do have free will and free minds. They can come up with their own ideas, regardless of education. Capitalism allows and embraces that (entreprenuership and innovation). Communism does not. Free thought is human nature -- it happens no matter what. That more closely coincides with capitalism than communism.

  6. #15
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    Default Re: Division is a capitalist conspiracy

    People can have different thoughts but they can also share a common bond of unity and putting community ahead of the individual. This can be taught in schools by teachers who would shame hurting others and praise taking care of the community.

    In communism there are free thoughts. Nobody forced people in Russia to get a certain profession or to wear certain clothes or to eat certain foods, or to play certain sports. All that was individually decided from the availability in stores.

  7. #16
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    Default Re: Division is a capitalist conspiracy

    If you are talking about the freedom of one person to screw another person who was misled due to lack of knowledge then I am against that kind of freedom!

  8. #17
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    Default Re: Division is a capitalist conspiracy

    Your freedom skipster has been an illusion. First war torn countries from WWII agreed to be dependent on USA and that boosted US image and economy in the World. Then, Reagan mounted an enormous deficit on America and ever since Reagan years America has been earning its freedom by borrowing massive amounts from other countries.


    Soviet Union would prosper if countries just threw money at it for 30 years. Americans have been living on somebody else's money!

  9. #18

    Default Re: Division is a capitalist conspiracy

    People can share a bond of unity and can put community ahead of the individual and STILL can be in a free society. They can certainly do that out of their own free will.

    As for your freedom post, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. We have laws to help ensure that freedom is not taken away from anyone. I'm just pointing out that free minds will not be constrained in either their profession choices or their ideas.

    You are also assuming that people who do not think like you should not be allowed to exist or make decisions for themselves as to how to act. I think these people know how to make their own decisions for themselves and are better equipped to make those decisions than anyone else.

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