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Thread: It is very difficult right now with all the Jesus talk

  1. #55
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    Default Re: It is very difficult right now with all the Jesus talk

    leglace,

    There are so many mistakes in your post above I don't even know where to begin. In pre-communist Russia 60% of the people had NO or LIMITED rights of freedom, education or ownership. That is why they rebeled. They were basically serfs, working for very little pay on somebody's land without the ability to move or to break free from that person. Interesting that you call that capitalism.

    If capitalism were based on human nature, then there would be no need for religion since capitalism is exactly opposite of religion. Profit, greed, and competition to acquire are all anti-religious elements.

    Capitalism is the extension of Kings and Tzars or slave owners if you will. A small bunch of people control the masses through contracts, nothing more.

    Don't be fooled by so called better living under capitalism. Remember, every benefit has a harm to it as well. How many people suffer because they eat too much for example? How many rich people are on drugs from depression?

    Finally, communism in Eastern Europe fell because people were duped by capitalists. Sure, Western products were of superior quality and Eastern European people liked those products, but at what cost? Eastern European people didn't like overtime work, expensive rents, disease from overeating, and depression from having to immigrate to find work and so on.

    I can assure you the majority of the people in Russia that lived under communism would take back that system in a second as opposed to what is there now. It can't happen right now because people in power like getting rich from oil revenues though.

    PS Japan was always an advanced country. America didn't do jack besides givng it access to resources and initially finances to get them going after WWII. Any communist country would do well with such help as well.
    Last edited by Big; 12-26-2007 at 07:08 AM.

  2. #56
    National Finalist leglace's Avatar
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    Default Re: It is very difficult right now with all the Jesus talk

    A few points to consider.

    The idea about Marxism is that it needs capitalism to start the economy. Why do you suppose that is?

    When Lenin introduced Marxism, they were still allowed to own land and limited private companies were allowed. Call it communist lite if you like. This was considered the "Golden Years". Why do you think that is"

    Under Stalins rule, his lust for to complete control of the republic led communism to a stagnant economy. And it didn't help that he created death camps and murdered 7 million of his own people. He was overthrown because of failure of the economy. Many leaders after him also failed due to not fulfilling promises to fix the economy. There had to be a reason both Gorbachev and Yeltzin saw the end was near for communism. It was a train about to hit a wall. The problem with the fall of the Soviet Union was that the economy was destined to fail without communism because the country was never structured for a free market. You can't just turn on a switch. The public didn't have business savvy at the time. And corruption was already the biggest part of the economy. Thank the previous leaders for creating secret police, and practically a separate government ready to overthrow leadership. They never stood a chance.

    Of course things were better for the public under communism after the fall of the Iron Curtain. But that doesn't mean much. It could take 20 years or more to build a real capitalist society. Its not an easy thing. But coming from a corrupt nation that had 2 leaders die within 18 mos each since taking office, should tell you how hard it is to maintain. Look at Germany. They continue to be one of the strongest economies and they have a very low poverty level. They went through similar corruption as the USSR. But they continued and have been been even more prosperous. In fact, when compared side by side immediately after the fall of both Stalin and Hitler, Germany had been more successful.

  3. #57
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    Default Re: It is very difficult right now with all the Jesus talk

    You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Stalin wasn't overthrown. He died a happy man of natural causes as the leader of Soviet Union while people weeped at his death. For all his faults, prior to WWII Soviet Union under Stalin was the fastest growing country in the world.

  4. #58
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    Default Re: It is very difficult right now with all the Jesus talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Big View Post
    You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Stalin wasn't overthrown. He died a happy man of natural causes as the leader of Soviet Union while people weeped at his death. For all his faults, prior to WWII Soviet Union under Stalin was the fastest growing country in the world.
    I may have confused him with Kruschev. Staliin did grow the USSR, but that was by expanding to 3rd world countries and a harsh regime. He was a Hitler of his time, until of course he was betrayed. Only then did he become a hero to his people. At least based on what I had learned.

  5. #59
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    Default Re: It is very difficult right now with all the Jesus talk

    leglace,

    Again, unlike the Japanese or the Germans that got help from USA or even USA getting the upper hand by saving itself from WWII damage, Soviet Union emerged as the number two economy in the World without any help. A remarkable achievement considering it lived through Russian Revolution, Civil war and WWII as well as the Cold War.

    After the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, the country grew from a largely underdeveloped peasant society with minimal industry to become the second largest industrial power in the world. According to Soviet statistics, the country's share in world industrial production grew from 5.5% to 20% between 1913 and 1980. Although some Western analysts considered these claims to be inflated, the Soviet achievement remained remarkable. Recovering from the calamitous events of World War II, the country's economy had maintained a continuous though uneven rate of growth. Living standards, although still modest for most inhabitants by Western standards[citation needed], had improved
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union

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    Default Re: It is very difficult right now with all the Jesus talk

    Wouldn't the majority of that growth come during Lenin's tenure, in what was still considered a capitalist friendly Marxist government.

  7. #61
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    Default Re: It is very difficult right now with all the Jesus talk

    No leglace. No. Lenin's system failed because it was not enough. That is why Stalin scratched it. In any case, most of the growth came after WWII:

    Recovering from the calamitous events of World War II, the country's economy had maintained a continuous though uneven rate of growth. Living standards, although still modest for most inhabitants by Western standards[citation needed], had improved.

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    Default Re: It is very difficult right now with all the Jesus talk

    The Soviet Union emerged from World War II as one of the world's two superpowers, a position maintained for four decades through its hegemony in Eastern Europe (see Eastern Bloc), military strength, economic strength, aid to developing countries, and scientific research, especially into space technology and weaponry. The Soviet Union's growing influence abroad in the postwar years helped lead to a Communist system of states in Eastern Europe united by military and economic agreements. It overtook the British Empire as a global superpower, both in a military sense and its ability to expand its influence beyond its borders.

  9. #63
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    Default Re: It is very difficult right now with all the Jesus talk

    In 1928, Stalin introduced the First Five-Year Plan for building a socialist economy. While encompassing the internationalism expressed by Lenin throughout the course of the Revolution, it also aimed for building socialism in one country. In industry, the state assumed control over all existing enterprises and undertook an intensive program of industrialization; in agriculture collective farms were established all over the country. It met widespread resistance from kulaks and some prosperous peasants, who withheld grain, resulting in a bitter struggle of this class against the authorities and the poor peasants. Famines occurred causing hundreds of thousands of deaths. Social upheaval continued in the mid-1930s. Stalin's Great Purge of the party eliminated many "Old Bolsheviks" who had participated in the Revolution with Lenin. Yet despite the turmoil of the mid- to late 1930s, the Soviet Union developed a powerful industrial economy in the years before World War II.

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