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Thread: GM could still fall despite gov.bailout

  1. #55

    Default Re: GM could still fall despite gov.bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by ODH View Post
    It is funny that the bailouts still create so much controversy. There are essentially zero politicians who liked them. They held their noses and voted for them despite their objections because they thought it was the best thing for the country even though they knew they would take a beating politically for their vote. This includes both Democrats and Republicans and Bush and Obama. Now that the bailouts turned out to be successful they are held out as evidence of everything that is wrong with our system, while I see it as an example of something that the government did well.

    The bailouts worked! Economic Armageddon was avoided at essentially no net loss to the government. And if you believe the experts financial collapse was a real possibility.
    I can't disagree with this, but as I think you know, there's a bit more to it than this with republicans. Hint: unions.
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  2. #56
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: GM could still fall despite gov.bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by ban basketball View Post
    Exactly. That WAS the heart of the issue and the collapse. The more likely that you were to default on a loan, the bigger bonus that the bank and lenders got, and the more likely that the lenders would prey on such high risk borrowers.

    That, alone, is the biggest call and need for regulation that anyone should see.
    I agree with you to a point. But we know that some in the government believe it is a right to own a home and would back the bad loans with fanny and freddy in order to get people into them.

  3. #57
    World Champ ODH's Avatar
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    Default Re: GM could still fall despite gov.bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    Trust me I did not want to save the banks and I thought we should not bail them out because of their mistakes, along with the governments hand in it, but in order to avoid a furthering of the financial crisis it had to be done, I didnt like it and I still dont like it. Sometimes you just have to take you medicine and thats what I had to do then. I will tell I have stopped banking with big banks directly anyway and opened an account at a very small credit union. The Government should have also mandated that loans be made after the bailout. That loans be made to people that were credit worthy and not allowed the banks to get fat and rich off of the loan and hoard the money. So I agree with you to a point.
    Banks do not get rich off hoarding money. They need to loan out money to to make a profit. Banks that are getting rich are making good loans to people who can pay them back. I don't see why so many free market guys (or even lefties) are upset at big profits from the big banks. We did not want them to fail and that why we lent them all of the money. Our loan worked they paid it back and now are very healthy and making big dollars.

    I do believe there should be more regulation, to minimize risks since our economy is apparently still dependent on big banks.
    I don't understand Dodd-Frank, but I thought it was a small effort to add some more regulation, but is vehemently opposed by Republicans who see it as government interference in free enterprise.

  4. #58

    Default Re: GM could still fall despite gov.bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    I agree with you to a point. But we know that some in the government believe it is a right to own a home and would back the bad loans with fanny and freddy in order to get people into them.
    Yes, but the problem wasn't that (increasing home ownership rates). If so, this system would have toppled back in the 70's, when such programs were implemented. Fannie and Fredie were also pretty tiny players in this scam, compared to Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Bear-Stearns, etc, etc.

    The problem was that the system was rigged, due to deregulation, to allow for banks and lenders to make a fortune off of high risk loans, and turn around and bet that such loans would fail. It was a ticking time bomb that eventually collapsed on itself. End that practice, and you eliminate a huge chance that furture collapses occur. To my knowledge, this practice still goes merrily along.

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  5. #59

    Default Re: GM could still fall despite gov.bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by ODH View Post
    So in other thread I thought you were opposed to the tax cuts in the Obama stimulus because they did not work, but if they are tax cuts sponsored by Republicans they are a good idea?

    If the Ryan plan for Medicare is so great why not start applying it to everybody now?
    To your first point about tax cuts, I never said I didn't like the idea of them. Obama's didn't work because it didn't help stimulate the economy. I know I already explained my view but maybe it wasn't clear. If you give tax breaks to everyone including the super rich then they will usually spend their tax breaks because the money is disposable. Their bills are already paid so it is actually extra cash to spend on things the rest of us make. That also keeps us working or gets us back to work. The 400 dollars to someone already 2 months behind on his mortgage merely bought him more time. Those people couldn't afford to stimulate the economy because they were too far behind. Its good we got a break of some sort bit without including people who can actually buy something with the money, it obviously didn't work.

    As for the Ryan plan not starting now, that would be silly. The people over 55 have planned on that money and don't have time to change plans. Those of us under 55 have enough working years left to handle the change. It isn't the throat cuttong people will try to tell you it is. It is actually the only plan that has been offered that won't aide in not only bankrupting our government but also keep from having old people left with empty promises. I really hope for your sake that you aren't counting on that or SS when you get older. That is a risk I wouldn't advise.

  6. #60

    Default Re: GM could still fall despite gov.bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by ODH View Post
    It is funny that the bailouts still create so much controversy. There are essentially zero politicians who liked them. They held their noses and voted for them despite their objections because they thought it was the best thing for the country even though they knew they would take a beating politically for their vote. This includes both Democrats and Republicans and Bush and Obama. Now that the bailouts turned out to be successful they are held out as evidence of everything that is wrong with our system, while I see it as an example of something that the government did well.

    The bailouts worked! Economic Armageddon was avoided at essentially no net loss to the government. And if you believe the experts financial collapse was a real possibility.
    Actually, I have to disagree with you on the bank bailout.

    Yes, we may have had the "loans" paid off, but the fact is that that we are still paying exhorbitantly with a bad economy, as a direct result of the economic crisis. Unemployment immediately went up over 40% in late 2008, and has since to really recover from that. In addition, because states were left with fewer funds to operate with it left less money for needed services in states, etc, etc.

    In short, we are still paying for that, due to a poor economy for, more or less, four years.
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  7. #61
    World Champ ODH's Avatar
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    Default Re: GM could still fall despite gov.bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    To your first point about tax cuts, I never said I didn't like the idea of them. Obama's didn't work because it didn't help stimulate the economy. I know I already explained my view but maybe it wasn't clear. If you give tax breaks to everyone including the super rich then they will usually spend their tax breaks because the money is disposable. Their bills are already paid so it is actually extra cash to spend on things the rest of us make. That also keeps us working or gets us back to work. The 400 dollars to someone already 2 months behind on his mortgage merely bought him more time. Those people couldn't afford to stimulate the economy because they were too far behind. Its good we got a break of some sort bit without including people who can actually buy something with the money, it obviously didn't work.

    As for the Ryan plan not starting now, that would be silly. The people over 55 have planned on that money and don't have time to change plans. Those of us under 55 have enough working years left to handle the change. It isn't the throat cuttong people will try to tell you it is. It is actually the only plan that has been offered that won't aide in not only bankrupting our government but also keep from having old people left with empty promises. I really hope for your sake that you aren't counting on that or SS when you get older. That is a risk I wouldn't advise.
    The tax breaks in the stimulus went to all income tax payers. The way marginal tax rates work if you give the bottom tax break a break everyone who pays income tax benefits. e.g. if the the tax rate is dropped from 10% to 5% on the first $10,000 dollars of income everyone who has taxable income of greater than $10,000 saves the same $500.

    SS is not in that bad of shape. If you closely at the details when it is claimed that SS will run out of money the truth is that it will no longer be able to reimburse at 100% rate that was promised. Worst case scenario is that payments will drop to 75%. Additionally a few minor adjustments to calculating pyment, retirement age and income lvel that maxes out payment will keep th system sovlent. Medicare is a completely different story... it is on a completely unsustainable path and there are no easy solutions. Credit Ryan for putting forth a plan that will be unpopular. I do not enough knowledge to know if it is a a good plan or not, but it is a real attempt to address a real issue.

  8. #62
    World Champ ODH's Avatar
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    Default Re: GM could still fall despite gov.bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by ban basketball View Post
    Actually, I have to disagree with you on the bank bailout.

    Yes, we may have had the "loans" paid off, but the fact is that that we are still paying exhorbitantly with a bad economy, as a direct result of the economic crisis. Unemployment immediately went up over 40% in late 2008, and has since to really recover from that. In addition, because states were left with fewer funds to operate with it left less money for needed services in states, etc, etc.

    In short, we are still paying for that, due to a poor economy for, more or less, four years.
    The bank bailout was not designed to end the recession ot to end all the econoic injustice of the capalist system. It was supposed to prevent the financial systen from collapsing. If unemployment truly went up to 40% in 2008 (that the first I have heard of that number) you can thank your Washington politicians for having the guts to make the unpopular choice to bail out the banks and preventing the economy from going into freefall.

    i dont see how states were left with less money to spend either as a result of the bailot. Money was not diverted by the Federal from States to banks.

  9. #63

    Default Re: GM could still fall despite gov.bailout

    ODH, I am pretty sure that anyone making over 250k a year did not get a break. I looked it up a few days ago but correct me if I'm wrong. Also, like I said before, tax breaks are never anything to stick your nose up to but the rich need to spend more to get the economy going. I don't see how punishing them with higher taxes will do that. I would rather see their money spent on buying products that the rest of us make instead of giving more to a government who has shown a long history of misspending it.

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