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Thread: The truth is Iraq War is a perfect way to rip tax payers of their hard earned money

  1. #28
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    Default Re: The truth is Iraq War is a perfect way to rip tax payers of their hard earned mon

    Quote Originally Posted by Flop The Nuts View Post
    (1)By the way, I only brought this up because Rick seemed to be making the point that this was Bush's war, and Congress never had the opportunity to vote on anything.

    (2)Is it more palatable to say that they voted for a military engagement rather than a war?
    (1)This was/is Bush's war. He planned it. He promoted it. He's stuck by it. Statements to the contrary astound me. Where were you in 2002? To say it was justified or was condoned by Congress is to revise history--to deflect the eye from Bush's role in the affair. Like I said, their vote didn't justify war.

    Bush used the bully pulpit for all it was worth. I expect most in Congress were afraid to stand up to him for fear of being labeled unpatriotic or some such rot.

    (2) Yes.

  2. #29

    Default Re: The truth is Iraq War is a perfect way to rip tax payers of their hard earned mon

    Clone said: (1)This was/is Bush's war. He planned it. He promoted it. He's stuck by it. Statements to the contrary astound me. Where were you in 2002? To say it was justified or was condoned by Congress is to revise history--to deflect the eye from Bush's role in the affair. Like I said, their vote didn't justify war.

    Bush used the bully pulpit for all it was worth. I expect most in Congress were afraid to stand up to him for fear of being labeled unpatriotic or some such rot.


    I'm only pointing out facts, nothing else. I'm not interested in how timid or weak Congress is, nor am I interested in anyone's excuses for how they voted. They voted for military engagement, and sided with Bush, regardless of bullying from the pulpit. What part of that statement is astounding?

    It's revisionist history to say that Congress wasn't given the opportunity to exert it's influence.

    (2) Yes.

    So, the difference between a war and a military engagement is just semantical BS, and you believe Congress would have voted differently had the action been termed a "war", rather than "military engagement"? Wow. The term "Orwellian" is overused, but I think it fits here.

  3. #30

    Default Re: The truth is Iraq War is a perfect way to rip tax payers of their hard earned mon

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    (1)This was/is Bush's war. He planned it. He promoted it. He's stuck by it. Statements to the contrary astound me. Where were you in 2002?
    Why do you refuse to acknowledge George Tenet?

    If you are looking for a single individual to pile blame upon, he would be the one.

  4. #31
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    Default Re: The truth is Iraq War is a perfect way to rip tax payers of their hard earned mon

    Quote Originally Posted by flop the nuts
    I'm only pointing out facts, nothing else. I'm not interested in how timid or weak Congress is, nor am I interested in anyone's excuses for how they voted. They voted for military engagement, and sided with Bush, regardless of bullying from the pulpit.
    No, no, no. You're using your facts to stand for a proposition, and that proposition, unless I've read you wrong, is that the Congressional vote is prima facie evidence that the war was justified and/or that everyone was on board with Bush's claim that we faced an imminent attack from Iraq.

    Quote Originally Posted by flop the nuts
    What part of that statement is astounding?
    I explained this already: the part that eliminates context from the whole affair: namely Bush's role in taking us to war (and the underlying issues that it reveals: abuse of executive power, use of propaganda, putting monetary interests over people).
    Last edited by matclone; 10-09-2007 at 10:43 AM.

  5. #32
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    Default Re: The truth is Iraq War is a perfect way to rip tax payers of their hard earned mon

    Quote Originally Posted by Flop The Nuts View Post
    So, the difference between a war and a military engagement is just semantical BS, and you believe Congress would have voted differently had the action been termed a "war", rather than "military engagement"? Wow. The term "Orwellian" is overused, but I think it fits here.
    If the President had asked Congress for a declaration of war, it's unlikely it would have passed. It would have been politically unpalatable. Ask yourself why he didn't. As I asked before: where were you in 2002 when all this was happening?

  6. #33

    Default Re: The truth is Iraq War is a perfect way to rip tax payers of their hard earned mon

    Originally Posted by flop the nuts
    I'm only pointing out facts, nothing else. I'm not interested in how timid or weak Congress is, nor am I interested in anyone's excuses for how they voted. They voted for military engagement, and sided with Bush, regardless of bullying from the pulpit.


    Clone:
    No, no, no. You're using your facts to stand for a proposition, and that proposition, unless I've read you wrong, is that the Congressional vote is prima facie evidence that the war was justified and/or that everyone was on board with Bush's claim that we faced an imminent attack from Iraq.


    That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the war is justified because Congress voted on it, I'm just saying that they approved the resolution for military engagement. It's not as if Congress woke up one day and said, "Hey, WTF are we doing bombing Baghdad?" I don't think a vote by Congress is ever justification for anything, whether it be a tax hike, new government program, or anything else. If Congress decided to raise the top tax rate to 80%, that wouldn't be justification in and of itself. That's a circular argument.

    Justification for the war was laid out by the administration before the vote. A few of the reasons for taking out Saddam have now proven to be incorrect. Bush said that Saddam had to be taken out before the threat became imminent, but yet people still misrepresent what he said.

    If people want to disagree with the rationale to take out Saddam, that's fine. There is plenty of evidence to show that the Shias and Sunnis may never live together in peace. I personally think we did the right thing, but we've completely screwed up the reconstruction.

  7. #34

    Default Re: The truth is Iraq War is a perfect way to rip tax payers of their hard earned mon

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    If the President had asked Congress for a declaration of war, it's unlikely it would have passed. It would have been politically unpalatable. Ask yourself why he didn't. As I asked before: where were you in 2002 when all this was happening?
    Why do you keep asking me where I was in 2002? Because I have a different interpretation of events than you, does that mean that I really didn't live through the year 2002?

    Even though I have a really low opinion of Congress, I hope that what you are opining isn't true. What a bunch of gutless, spineless tools they would be if they would vote "yes" on a military engagement, but "no" for a war. It's effectively the same thing for the people on the battlefield.

  8. #35
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    Default Re: The truth is Iraq War is a perfect way to rip tax payers of their hard earned mon

    Quote Originally Posted by Flop The Nuts
    That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the war is justified because Congress voted on it, I'm just saying that they approved the resolution for military engagement.
    Well then I'm confused. Why are you talking about Congress? There was no dispute here about the fact they voted for the resolution. So you must be asserting this fact stands for something related to the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by flop the nuts
    I don't think a vote by Congress is ever justification for anything, whether it be a tax hike, new government program, or anything else. If Congress decided to raise the top tax rate to 80%, that wouldn't be justification in and of itself. That's a circular argument.
    Damn right. That's my point. But, at the sake of repeating myself, Congress' vote is often submitted as proof that we were right to invade Iraq.

    Quote Originally Posted by flop the nuts
    Justification for the war was laid out by the administration before the vote.
    Not in my book. Not in many people's books. Millions of people across the world, and in the States protested pre-invasion. Where were you when this happened? Was it irrelevant because the NY Times didn't make it front page news? Beyond the protesters, there was considerable doubt here which changed exactly in, uh, March, 2003 when we invaded--at which time it became very unpopular to be against the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by flop the nuts
    A few of the reasons for taking out Saddam have now proven to be incorrect. Bush said that Saddam had to be taken out before the threat became imminent, but yet people still misrepresent what he said.
    I believe he actually used the term imminent in one of his speeches. Or, if he didn't, his references to mushroom clouds were clearly designed to make us think along those lines.
    Quote Originally Posted by flop the nuts
    If people want to disagree with the rationale to take out Saddam, that's fine.
    Okay. That's exactly my stance. It's an insult to me and to many others to say (as, for example, Ground & Pound does) that we're applying post hoc rationalizations as to why we shouldn't have invaded Iraq when there was considerable opposition to it in the first place.
    Last edited by matclone; 10-09-2007 at 11:29 AM.

  9. #36
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    Default Re: The truth is Iraq War is a perfect way to rip tax payers of their hard earned mon

    Quote Originally Posted by Flop The Nuts View Post
    Even though I have a really low opinion of Congress, I hope that what you are opining isn't true. What a bunch of gutless, spineless tools they would be if they would vote "yes" on a military engagement, but "no" for a war. It's effectively the same thing for the people on the battlefield.
    There's a distinction, but I don't know enough to explain it. Yes, it's the same on the battlefield, but it's not in the political arena.

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