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Thread: Government Bailouts

  1. #10
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    Default Re: Government Bailouts

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    ODH, I appologize for the "smart enough" comment. There is no inflection font or sarcasm font and when I re-read it, it sounded the opposite of what I meant. I was actually joking with you, because you are a good debater. My appology is sincere.

    With that said, the reason the date mattered to me is because you said that you heard about it TODAY. Then you posted something from 6 months ago. You are usually pretty up to date, so it seemed like a joke to me. The reason that the date actually matters is because if the government took our tax dollars and put it into private business, that means those dollars did not go towards running the government. All our tax dollars are supposed to be for is running the government.

    Now, if they made a profit in October of 2010 with our tax dollars then we should be getting a rebate. I have heard nothing of a rebate. The government CAN NOT force you to give them money so that they can invest it in private business and make a profit. They did that. It was wrong at the start. The only way to make it right is to give us back the money they used, plus the intrest they earned. The US government is not a business, if they made money off money that they forced me to pay then that is wrong.
    I wasn't offended by the smart enoough comment and I was actually surprised by how dated it was, so I was being half-serious saying that I wasn't smart enough to notcie.

    However, I don't really get your argument. This wasn't a scheme for the government to make a profit, but it was a last ditch effort to save our financial system. The fact that it did not end up costing the the billions that everyone assumed that it would, you would think is a good thing, not an insidious plot to invest taxpayer money for profit. the govenment can force you to give them money (it is called taxes) to invest in private industry (all sorts of governemtn subsidies and low-interest loans and loan guarenetees exist, see Ugly's thread)

    The government gives out loans all the time, student loans are an example. They are typically low interest loans, but if people pay them back with interest the government makes money. The government does not give taxpayer refunds on any type of loans or other programs the have a positive balance, so essentially you are getting a break when the government makes a profit on any loan program becasue it is less money they have to borrow.

  2. #11

    Default Re: Government Bailouts

    I don't agree with any of the money making things the government does. I don't understand why they are involved in student loans, I never have understood that. But, I admit, I didn't know they made money off of those loans. The role of the government is not to act as a business. I don't mind paying taxes for military, police, fire, and roads. I don't like being forced to give money to a private business that already proved that it can't manage money. It just seems like you are rewarding failure. I don't know enough about farm subsidies to have an educated opinion, but from what I have read on here, I don't like them either.

    Now, about the government making money and giving us a tax break because of it, I'm not buying that. They have ran up a 14trillion dollar debt because they don't know how to manage money. I don't think they are looking at the 10 billion that they made off of the bailouts (allegedly) and thinking that they can lower taxes because of it. That just gives them 10 billion more reasons to spend money and I am sure every congressman out there is fighting to get that money spent in their district so they might get re-elected.

    I do find it interesting that you live in New Hampshire, though. I know New Hampshire is primarily a liberal state. Ohio is historically conservative. So, based on where we grew up, you trust government and I don't. That is something that has always fascinated me. Makes me wonder what they put in the kool-aid in New Hamshire. We in Ohio don't drink the government kool-aid, we drink cheap beer.

  3. #12
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    Default Re: Government Bailouts

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    I don't agree with any of the money making things the government does. I don't understand why they are involved in student loans, I never have understood that. But, I admit, I didn't know they made money off of those loans. The role of the government is not to act as a business. I don't mind paying taxes for military, police, fire, and roads. I don't like being forced to give money to a private business that already proved that it can't manage money. It just seems like you are rewarding failure. I don't know enough about farm subsidies to have an educated opinion, but from what I have read on here, I don't like them either.

    Now, about the government making money and giving us a tax break because of it, I'm not buying that. They have ran up a 14trillion dollar debt because they don't know how to manage money. I don't think they are looking at the 10 billion that they made off of the bailouts (allegedly) and thinking that they can lower taxes because of it. That just gives them 10 billion more reasons to spend money and I am sure every congressman out there is fighting to get that money spent in their district so they might get re-elected.

    I do find it interesting that you live in New Hampshire, though. I know New Hampshire is primarily a liberal state. Ohio is historically conservative. So, based on where we grew up, you trust government and I don't. That is something that has always fascinated me. Makes me wonder what they put in the kool-aid in New Hamshire. We in Ohio don't drink the government kool-aid, we drink cheap beer.
    Do you relaize that if the mail out checks to split that $10billion among everyone in the US it would be about $33 per person.
    I really think you r argument about government investing in private business is a distraction. That wasn't the purpose, but it appears that it was program that did not lose money.

    NH is the one of the most conservative states in the Northeast. It is traditionally a strong Republican state, but has been shifting. It was the only state the voted for Bush in 200 that switched to Kerry. Right now the Republicans made a huge comeback and have dominant majorities in the lesgislature.

    However, I grew up in Massachusetts, which definitely leans left.
    Kind of silly to think that becasue that people with a different viewpoint are drinking the "government kool-aid" (BTW, I like expensive beer).

    The whole point of this thread is to counter argument like yours that the government can't do anyhting right and we can't trust the government.

  4. #13

    Default Re: Government Bailouts

    Does that 33 dollar figure mean per person or per tax payer? Children don't pay taxes and neither do half the adult population.

    As far as drinking the kool-aid, I think the analogy fits. However, I did think New Hampshire was liberal. Am I thinking of Vermont maybe? Anyway, the analogy is basically that where you are raised has a huge factor in how you vote. For whatever reason, people who are liberal pass that down from generation to generation, just like conservatives do. If I were raised in Massachussettes by liberal parents, I would probably think like a liberal. If you were raised in Ohio by conservative parents, you would probably think like a conservative.

    What I find VERY interesting is that state to state, views are soooo different. How in the heck did Illinois become liberal when it's surrounded by so many conservative states? Why is it that Ohio is the only state where people have the correct view point on everything?

    As far as the beer goes, it does not suprise me that you would want to over pay for a product that you could get cheaper, with the same quality. As long as you don't make me pay taxes to afford your expensive beer, though, have at it.

  5. #14

    Default Re: Government Bailouts

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    Does that 33 dollar figure mean per person or per tax payer? Children don't pay taxes and neither do half the adult population.

    As far as drinking the kool-aid, I think the analogy fits. However, I did think New Hampshire was liberal. Am I thinking of Vermont maybe? Anyway, the analogy is basically that where you are raised has a huge factor in how you vote. For whatever reason, people who are liberal pass that down from generation to generation, just like conservatives do. If I were raised in Massachussettes by liberal parents, I would probably think like a liberal. If you were raised in Ohio by conservative parents, you would probably think like a conservative.

    What I find VERY interesting is that state to state, views are soooo different. How in the heck did Illinois become liberal when it's surrounded by so many conservative states? Why is it that Ohio is the only state where people have the correct view point on everything?

    As far as the beer goes, it does not suprise me that you would want to over pay for a product that you could get cheaper, with the same quality. As long as you don't make me pay taxes to afford your expensive beer, though, have at it.

    I don't think Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin or Michigan are "conservative" states. Pretty moderate, and if anything a bit left leaning.
    "The true and present danger to America is conservatism!" -Abraham Lincoln

  6. #15

    Default Re: Government Bailouts

    Not all economists agree the the economy would have collapsed without the BS bail out. The financial players are calling the shots and Obama follows along. Nobody speaks for main street (re: middle class) America.

    Tell me about money managers, and other Wall Street financiers, who make hundreds of thousands of dollars through shifting funds back and forth, and creating their EXOTIC and brilliant on-paper toys. Tell me about all of the jobs they create. Explain to me why they, would precipitated this current depression, should not be SOAKED with higher taxes.
    DSCH: a Soviet artist's reply to unjust criticism.

  7. #16
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    Default Re: Government Bailouts

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    Does that 33 dollar figure mean per person or per tax payer? Children don't pay taxes and neither do half the adult population.

    As far as drinking the kool-aid, I think the analogy fits. However, I did think New Hampshire was liberal. Am I thinking of Vermont maybe? Anyway, the analogy is basically that where you are raised has a huge factor in how you vote. For whatever reason, people who are liberal pass that down from generation to generation, just like conservatives do. If I were raised in Massachussettes by liberal parents, I would probably think like a liberal. If you were raised in Ohio by conservative parents, you would probably think like a conservative.

    What I find VERY interesting is that state to state, views are soooo different. How in the heck did Illinois become liberal when it's surrounded by so many conservative states? Why is it that Ohio is the only state where people have the correct view point on everything?

    As far as the beer goes, it does not suprise me that you would want to over pay for a product that you could get cheaper, with the same quality. As long as you don't make me pay taxes to afford your expensive beer, though, have at it.
    The $33 is per person not per taxpayer and I realize people without income do not pay income taxes. The statement that half the adult population does not pay taxes is a complete falsehood, and is an excellent example of how you can take a statistic and only need to twist a little bit to make a completely different meaning and if it is repeated often nough it is accepted as fact. The statistic is that the bottom 50% of the population pay a net of zero dollars in Federal income tax.
    So from that bottom 50%, some get money back (Earn Income Tax Credit), some pay nothing, and some pay a small amount, but enough to make up what is spent on the Earned Income Tax Credit. In addition, there are local, state and county taxes that almost everyone pays.... However, all this misses the point which is $10 billion is small amount when you take in to account the size of the country.

    Vermont is regarded as very Liberal, but they just had a Republican Governor. And yes there is a big difference state to state, but even in the most partisan states the dominant party typically wins with 60% of the vote, meaning that if just one out ten voters changes his mind it is a dead heat.

    BTW, my mother is liberal and my father is conversative. My older brother has moved to Texas and he is extremely Liberal, I see myself as moderately Liberal and my younger brother move to New York is now is conservative. So what does that prove?

  8. #17
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    Default Re: Government Bailouts

    Quote Originally Posted by LkwdSteve View Post
    Not all economists agree the the economy would have collapsed without the BS bail out. The financial players are calling the shots and Obama follows along. Nobody speaks for main street (re: middle class) America.

    Tell me about money managers, and other Wall Street financiers, who make hundreds of thousands of dollars through shifting funds back and forth, and creating their EXOTIC and brilliant on-paper toys. Tell me about all of the jobs they create. Explain to me why they, would precipitated this current depression, should not be SOAKED with higher taxes.
    I don't think there is a single subjec that you can find all economists agreeing. But I think that the general view was that our finiacial system was collapsing and the true reason Obama followed through with the bailout was becasue he believed the collapse would have dire consequences for the average American. I have no idea if this is true and I agree that the view of economists is distorted becasue they are so closely tied to the financial industry.

    I don't it makes sense to turn income taxes into a punitive system, but i can't even begin to comprehend the reasoning for people who want to roll back the minimal regulations that were put into place.

  9. #18

    Default Re: Government Bailouts

    Doesn't a net zero of federal income taxes mean that you pay a net zero of federal income taxes? Doesn't that also mean you pay nothing in federal income taxes? As far as state taxes go, Alaska has none and neither does Florida and I believe Nevada. Alaska doesn't even have sales tax. I know that because I bought a sleeping bag for 19.99, handed the clerk a 20 and got a penny back.

    On a side note, I also made up an address in Anchorage at the license bureau. Told them I just moved there. They gave me an Alaskan drivers license and I didn't have to pay for a hunting or fishing license since I was a "resident". My buddy tipped me off on that.

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