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Thread: God Is Responsible

  1. #37

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    The first sentence of that post (in italics) was mine. The rest was Arm-spin's answer. Somehow it was posted as being all from me. Look at the bottom of the post (#18 in this thread) where it says:

    Last edited by arm-spin; 12-09-2010 at 08:23 PM.

    I am indeed an atheist and do not believe that God exists, or at least does not exist in a form that would respond to human prayer.
    Definitely an interesting situation there.

  2. #38

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    "You cannot petition the Lord with prayer!"

    James Douglas Morrison

  3. #39

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by coachsparky View Post
    Definitely an interesting situation there.
    Spider, I think I accidentally hit "edit post" rather than reply when attempting to your question. My apologies, it is now fixed.

  4. #40

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    I don't buy the incomprehensible argument.
    Whatever form God takes, He must be incomprehensible to some degree. Humans are finite, physical beings. God is immaterial and infinite. How can we possibly fully understand something like that?

    I would personally ask: is God separate from you? Does God control everything? Or are you apart of that divinity? Are you in anyway shape or form responsible for your own condition? your own life? your family? your groups? your fellow man? for other living things?
    Yes, God is completely seperate from me. As a human being I have the capacity to communicate with God, or to have a spiritual experience, but I am not God and God is not me. I am finite in time and space, mortal and flawed. God is none of those things.
    I believe God is in control of the universe, but I also think I bear responsiblity for my own choices and decisions, and the way those impact others. I don't pretend too understand the mechanics of how this works, though a lot of theologians attempt to.

    If man has the POTENTIAL to become INFINITE or to RESTORE himself to a infinite spiritual nature, how much of a role does responsibility play in that growth or not?

    I don't think man has the potention to become infinite. I think each person has the potential for eternal existence with God, but he or she will always be a finite and distinct being.

    Is one's relationship with God dependent upon faith solely or upon ones' actions?
    Both, as faith and actions are inseprable. In the same was as my love towards my wife is not real without action, my love of God is a delusion of it does not impact my life. Theologically, I suppose I'm with Martin Luther who says that God accepts us purely because of His own grace, but once we truly experience God's grace we will respond in love.


    I believe that the answer to your question (Why did such-and-such a bad thing happen"?) arm-spin, lies within the questions I posted.
    Maybe I'm a little slow but I don't see how. Other than "people are responsible for their acrions" your post doesn't adress the problem of suffering.

    If you can define your beliefs & concept of God, then it is my personal belief that one's own definitions should also explain the nature of those problems & questions. If it can't then I would politely suggest that one's spiritual model of the world needed revising.

    To me the proof is in the pudding...does one's philosophy WORK....does it explain things & give one a base from which to operate...

    God either exists, or He doesn't. If God does exists, He/she/it has some qualities and not others. Lots of different beliefs work for lots of different people, but they can't all be objectively true.

  5. #41
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    I don't buy the incomprehensible argument.
    Whatever form God takes, He must be incomprehensible to some degree. Humans are finite, physical beings. God is immaterial and infinite. How can we possibly fully understand something like that?
    For myself I never believed that & made it one of my goals to understand who and/or what the divine IS. About 15 years ago I felt I achieved that goal as a MAP goes & I have spent the rest of that time traveling that MAP trying to apply it's truths along the way.

    Human beings are potentially infinite immortal souls in a physical & finite body. The Bible has many references tobeing a part of God & God being in you. Matthew 5:9 is just one of them. The sermon on the mount is another in a series of parables & teachings where Jesus shows us that the way is in our ACTIONS & those actions are meant for us to take on more responsibility. Where THAT boundary lies is only your consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    I would personally ask: is God separate from you? Does God control everything? Or are you apart of that divinity? Are you in anyway shape or form responsible for your own condition? your own life? your family? your groups? your fellow man? for other living things?

    Yes, God is completely seperate from me. As a human being I have the capacity to communicate with God, or to have a spiritual experience, but I am not God and God is not me. I am finite in time and space, mortal and flawed. God is none of those things.

    I believe God is in control of the universe, but I also think I bear responsiblity for my own choices and decisions, and the way those impact others. I don't pretend too understand the mechanics of how this works, though a lot of theologians attempt to.
    I do not feel that the Divine is separate from me nor am I separate from it's Life.

    If you can communicate then you can also BE as well as DO. Communication is the ability to DUPLICATE another's viewpoint. So if you can communicate with GOd then you can DUPLICATE God & hence BE that viewpoint. Buddhist Monks spend their entire life seeking that place of oneness with God/The Divine.

    The body is finite but the spirit IS NOT the body. The spirit as apart of the Divine can achieve things outside the finite world & senses. It is a choice. In doing so one sets himself upon a path of increased action, responsibility, causation & eventually freedom from the finite world.

    For me, there is a place where the mechanics of the physical & the causation of the soul meet. In quantum mechanics we start to see how the viewpoint does effect the physical world. For me, there is a place where science & spirituality meet.

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    If man has the POTENTIAL to become INFINITE or to RESTORE himself to a infinite spiritual nature, how much of a role does responsibility play in that growth or not?

    I don't think man has the potention to become infinite. I think each person has the potential for eternal existence with God, but he or she will always be a finite and distinct being.
    Well that has NOT been my experience. There is a place where you have an infinite number of infinite beings co-existing. In that space a person can choose to be in his own universe or can co-exist interacting with other universes. And this is a basic thing people tend to go into agreement with & that is that they don't have a universe, that the only universe that exists is the physical universe or that the only spiritual universe that exists is one created by God. I have found that this is NOT the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    Is one's relationship with God dependent upon faith solely or upon ones' actions?

    Both, as faith and actions are inseparable. In the same was as my love towards my wife is not real without action, my love of God is a delusion of it does not impact my life. Theologically, I suppose I'm with Martin Luther who says that God accepts us purely because of His own grace, but once we truly experience God's grace we will respond in love.
    Ok great but if faith & action are inseparable then why do so many Protestants believe that FAITH is all that is required to enter the gates of heaven yet the Bible says that "Faith without works is dead?" Catholics are taught to ACT good. I will agree with you on what you said but realize that much Christian debate occurs over the subject of FAITH vs WORKS.

    If you agree with Martin Luther then you don't believe in WORKS according one any degree of salvation. That in Lutheran thought is provided solely by FAITH & belief in Jesus as your savior. Doing good deeds in the Protestant world as little spiritual value other then following the commandments.

    Being someone who has spent a lot of time studying & practicing in the East, I most definitely feel that one's own actions are what give one an increased spirituality, in both awareness & stature. In Eastern thought, one's actions determine one's own salvation when follows a practice & path. It is NOT given out simply because you believe & are being someone who doesn't "sin."

    I find that most Christians don't want to think that hard for themselves & would rather someone dictate an interpretation of the Bible to them then go & dig out the meanings that Jesus taught in the New Testament. But there is much to be gained in doing so for one's own self, I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    I believe that the answer to your question (Why did such-and-such a bad thing happen"?) arm-spin, lies within the questions I posted.

    Maybe I'm a little slow but I don't see how. Other than "people are responsible for their actions" your post doesn't address the problem of suffering.
    No I didn't get to that. But that gets into an entire level of willingness to accept responsibility & causation. And then you have to look @ how much one creates in ones own life. Most people don't want to hear this because then that means they have to take more responsibility. Most folks like to be able to blame someone for their unwanted condition.

    For example I have suffered greatly at times physically with the tumor that grew to about the size of a grapefruit on my neck. True the radiation has done a lot to physically diminish the main tumor, (I have done zero chemo & won't). I have also done a lot nutritionally to fight the tumor growth & strengthen my immune system. However the most important underlining thing I feel I have done is to address spiritually the reasons I am in agreement with having this body problem.

    I have looked at what I have done to create this problem in my life. I have never blamed anyone. I have not gotten angry about it. I have not been afraid of dying.

    I have however looked at my own transgressions that have glued me to unwanted conditions. I have looked at the unwanted people in my life who have contributed to those unwanted agreements & conditions I have had. I have ultimately looked @ my own goals & purposes to see that I created this cancer for a REASON. I learned something from this & I am helping others to answer their own questions about why they have this particular body problem.

    Yes there were also physical universe factors that played into & contributed to this problem but ultimately if you handle all those physical factors & don't address the spirit then in my book you are doing yourself a disservice & things will probably not turn out like you would like them to as you didn't learn the lesson you are trying to teach yourself.

    And that is just PART of my answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    If you can define your beliefs & concept of God, then it is my personal belief that one's own definitions should also explain the nature of those problems & questions. If it can't then I would politely suggest that one's spiritual model of the world needed revising.

    To me the proof is in the pudding...does one's philosophy WORK....does it explain things & give one a base from which to operate...


    God either exists, or He doesn't. If God does exists, He/she/it has some qualities and not others. Lots of different beliefs work for lots of different people, but they can't all be objectively true.
    No they can't be. So you have to look @ how far do they get you. And I guess most people ultimately don't really know until after this life is over, to see how their beliefs worked. I've worked hard to beat that barrier & feel I have to some degree. Still a lot of work ahead of me. But it's fun for me to share what I have learned & get other people's viewpoints along the way.
    Last edited by kr1963; 12-15-2010 at 04:08 PM.

  6. #42

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by kr1963 View Post
    For myself I never believed that & made it one of my goals to understand who and/or what the divine IS. About 15 years ago I felt I achieved that goal as a MAP goes & I have spent the rest of that time traveling that MAP trying to apply it's truths along the way.

    Human beings are potentially infinite immortal souls in a physical & finite body. The Bible has many references tobeing a part of God & God being in you. Matthew 5:9 is just one of them. The sermon on the mount is another in a series of parables & teachings where Jesus shows us that the way is in our ACTIONS & those actions are meant for us to take on more responsibility. Where THAT boundary lies is only your consideration.



    I do not feel that the Divine is separate from me nor am I separate from it's Life.

    If you can communicate then you can also BE as well as DO. Communication is the ability to DUPLICATE another's viewpoint. So if you can communicate with GOd then you can DUPLICATE God & hence BE that viewpoint. Buddhist Monks spend their entire life seeking that place of oneness with God/The Divine.

    The body is finite but the spirit IS NOT the body. The spirit as apart of the Divine can achieve things outside the finite world & senses. It is a choice. In doing so one sets himself upon a path of increased action, responsibility, causation & eventually freedom from the finite world.

    For me, there is a place where the mechanics of the physical & the causation of the soul meet. In quantum mechanics we start to see how the viewpoint does effect the physical world. For me, there is a place where science & spirituality meet.



    Well that has NOT been my experience. There is a place where you have an infinite number of infinite beings co-existing. In that space a person can choose to be in his own universe or can co-exist interacting with other universes. And this is a basic thing people tend to go into agreement with & that is that they don't have a universe, that the only universe that exists is the physical universe or that the only spiritual universe that exists is one created by God. I have found that this is NOT the case.



    Ok great but if faith & action are inseparable then why do so many Protestants believe that FAITH is all that is required to enter the gates of heaven yet the Bible says that "Faith without works is dead?" Catholics are taught to ACT good. I will agree with you on what you said but realize that much Christian debate occurs over the subject of FAITH vs WORKS.

    If you agree with Martin Luther then you don't believe in WORKS according one any degree of salvation. That in Lutheran thought is provided solely by FAITH & belief in Jesus as your savior. Doing good deeds in the Protestant world as little spiritual value other then following the commandments.

    Being someone who has spent a lot of time studying & practicing in the East, I most definitely feel that one's own actions are what give one an increased spirituality, in both awareness & stature. In Eastern thought, one's actions determine one's own salvation when follows a practice & path. It is NOT given out simply because you believe & are being someone who doesn't "sin."

    I find that most Christians don't want to think that hard for themselves & would rather someone dictate an interpretation of the Bible to them then go & dig out the meanings that Jesus taught in the New Testament. But there is much to be gained in doing so for one's own self, I believe.



    No I didn't get to that. But that gets into an entire level of willingness to accept responsibility & causation. And then you have to look @ how much one creates in ones own life. Most people don't want to hear this because then that means they have to take more responsibility. Most folks like to be able to blame someone for their unwanted condition.

    For example I have suffered greatly at times physically with the tumor that grew to about the size of a grapefruit on my neck. True the radiation has done a lot to physically diminish the main tumor, (I have done zero chemo & won't). I have also done a lot nutritionally to fight the tumor growth & strengthen my immune system. However the most important underlining thing I feel I have done is to address spiritually the reasons I am in agreement with having this body problem.

    I have looked at what I have done to create this problem in my life. I have never blamed anyone. I have not gotten angry about it. I have not been afraid of dying.

    I have however looked at my own transgressions that have glued me to unwanted conditions. I have looked at the unwanted people in my life who have contributed to those unwanted agreements & conditions I have had. I have ultimately looked @ my own goals & purposes to see that I created this cancer for a REASON. I learned something from this & I am helping others to answer their own questions about why they have this particular body problem.

    Yes there were also physical universe factors that played into & contributed to this problem but ultimately if you handle all those physical factors & don't address the spirit then in my book you are doing yourself a disservice & things will probably not turn out like you want themas you didn't learn the lesson you are trying to teach yourself.

    And that is just PART of my answer.



    No they can't be. So you have to look @ how far do they get you. And I guess most people ultimately don't really know until after this life is over, to see how their beliefs worked. I've worked hard to beat that barrier & feel I have to some degree. Still a lot of work ahead of me. But it's fun for me to share what I have learned & get other people's viewpoints along the way.
    kr, it is apparent that you believe in a duality that I do not believe exists at all. What you call the spirit is not a separate life then the life that we here experience in the physical. We would not exist at all if it was not for the "spiritual" because there would be no energy to animate our bodies. What you call "spiritual" is simply that energy/ the God force that allows all life to exist. It is one and the same with the physical Universe. All life has the same "spiritual" energy that animates it, whether it be a tree, an amoeba or a human being. Once the physical wears out and/or is damaged beyond repair, the "spiritual" energy goes back to whence it came.

  7. #43
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by coachsparky View Post
    kr, it is apparent that you believe in a duality that I do not believe exists at all. What you call the spirit is not a separate life then the life that we here experience in the physical. We would not exist at all if it was not for the "spiritual" because there would be no energy to animate our bodies. What you call "spiritual" is simply that energy/ the God force that allows all life to exist. It is one and the same with the physical Universe. All life has the same "spiritual" energy that animates it, whether it be a tree, an amoeba or a human being. Once the physical wears out and/or is damaged beyond repair, the "spiritual" energy goes back to whence it came.
    Duality? Explain pls as I don't understand the definition to what you are referring. And I don't want to assume I know what it is you are EXACTLY talking about.

    Actually Spark I agree with you in principle, (except for your last sentence) though I am sure we differ on the details.

  8. #44

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    Christians have indeed spent a lot of time fighting about the comparitive necessity of "faith" vs "good works".
    However I think that in the original, Biblical sense they are pretty inseperable.

    The New Testament teaches (I believe) that salvation, entrance into heaven, ect is something given by God out of pure grace, without people doing anything to deserve it at all. (In constrast to first-century Judaism or Medieval Catholicism, where entrance into heaven is earned through doing certain tasks.) When :utherans talk about "faith", they are talking about simply accepting that gift from God. However, a person who has truly accepted a supernatural gift from God can not help but be affected by it.

    Martin Luther's own words (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/...ther-faith.txt):
    Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are.
    Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words.

  9. #45

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    I have however looked at my own transgressions that have glued me to unwanted conditions. I have looked at the unwanted people in my life who have contributed to those unwanted agreements & conditions I have had. I have ultimately looked @ my own goals & purposes to see that I created this cancer for a REASON. I learned something from this & I am helping others to answer their own questions about why they have this particular body problem.

    I am glad this works for you and it is a great attitude to have. However, bad things happen to children as well. Even babies. What can they possibly have done to self-create suffering?

    I think any philosophical or religious belief that claims to fully explain pain and suffering in the world is decieving itself. Humanity simply doesn't have all the answers at this point.

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