Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 19 to 27 of 62

Thread: God Is Responsible

  1. #19
    Super Moderator Zapp Brannigan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    8,269

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    So if man can never understand God's nature or plan, what's the point of any discussion about God? It's like trying to teach a dog algebra. This is what logicians call a "shut up" argument. It is the way it is because it is and any argument to the contrary is wrong because the premise is right.
    Not necessarily. If you agree that God exists (for the sake of this argument), it goes without saying that he is beyond a 3 dimensional being such as we are. Very much it could be like trying to explain to a dimensional being the concept of three dimensions, ti's beyond their abilities. That doesn't mean that discussion isn't fruitful and it might lead to other discoveries, but it does mean that there will probably always be things that our minds, as presently constructed, can't possibly comprehend.
    Jacob Schlottke---Gone too soon, and the world is a little less bright because of it. RIP, brother.

    One, two, Evans is coming for you...

  2. #20
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    5,424

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapp Brannigan View Post
    Not necessarily. If you agree that God exists (for the sake of this argument), it goes without saying that he is beyond a 3 dimensional being such as we are. Very much it could be like trying to explain to a dimensional being the concept of three dimensions, ti's beyond their abilities. That doesn't mean that discussion isn't fruitful and it might lead to other discoveries, but it does mean that there will probably always be things that our minds, as presently constructed, can't possibly comprehend.
    Like a sphere would appear to be a circle to a two-dimentional being. But knowing so little about it really doesn't accomplish much, especially when knowing the true nature of it is by it's very nature impossible.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  3. #21
    Super Moderator Zapp Brannigan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Staten Island, NY
    Posts
    8,269

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    Like a sphere would appear to be a circle to a two-dimentional being. But knowing so little about it really doesn't accomplish much, especially when knowing the true nature of it is by it's very nature impossible.
    Technically, a sphere would look like a line to a two dimensional being, no?
    Jacob Schlottke---Gone too soon, and the world is a little less bright because of it. RIP, brother.

    One, two, Evans is coming for you...

  4. #22
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    5,424

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    No, a two dimentional being would live on a plane. A sphere intersects a plane as a circle. But I'm just a dentist - perhaps a mathematician will correct me.

    Bye, bye for now. Time for Jeopardy here in Connecticut.
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  5. #23
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Clearwater, Florida, United States
    Posts
    7,028

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    A circle is a curvature in space so a 2D being would see a sphere much like a frisbee coming straight @ you. It would be like an arc only if the 2D being had any depth perception but in a perfect 2D world that depth would be basically inconsequential.

    So a sphere would probably still just look like a line segment to a 2D being but possibly an arc to one with any depth perception. If he walked around it he might be able to figure out that he was dealing with what he referred to as a "circle" BUT his idea of "round" would be that of an arc & a circle would not exist for him physically though he might be able to imagine that 3rd dimension & see the circle in his mind.

    If he was able to get that far he might then be able to imagine rotating that circle on an axis (a cylinder) or on itself (sphere). In that way he IS more then able to grasp the concept of God and/or spiritual life beyond the physical. I know I have.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Much of this argument stems from the generally 2 valued logic system of Christianity, (good vs evil, saved vs damned).

    Many Christians tend to subscribe to the reality that God is a separate entity from them which instantly releases them of any sort of responsibility hence you have a list of preachers who go & "sin" & then beg for forgiveness from their flock. To most people not only are those preachers insincere but charlatans as well.

    This separateness from God was strengthened by the Faith vs Works argument that is debated exhaustively to this day. That argument I feel originates from Martin Luther who, after extensive study of the Bible, (which the Catholic Church back then did not allow) concluded that all one needed was FAITH in Jesus as one's savior. In that way only, you are saved as opposed to damned.

    In that argument, failure to BELIEVE makes one damned no matter what he has done. Also if one is a BELIEVER then his faith guarantees his salvation no matter his actions. And this emphasizes the idea that God is Control of everything.

    The Catholic church, as a political instrument, had a vested interest in substantiating the WORKS argument as it wanted people to behavior in a particular fashion, (or hence they would suffer the consequences & go to hell).

    In a more true spiritual practice of Christianity, the new testament shares many parables like the Tale of the Good Samaritan demonstrating the passage in the Bible that says "Faith without works is dead." Here your actions have accountability. Here, in ADDITION to your faith, YOU have accountability for your actions in helping your fellow man.

    In Buddhism, we take that concept one step (or two) further in the fact that Buddhism is more of a practice that requires participation not faith. In practicing the tenets of Buddhism & it's spiritual actions, one can gain spiritual enlightenment & thusly have a hand in one's own salvation, (or not).

    Here the concept of God is NOT one of the wrathful vengeful hairy thunderer, Zeus like in his conduct. Nirvana is a place, (like heaven) & the Godhead is an unbounded state of being from which all life flows out of a divine & eternal spring. One hopes to reach this state thru one's own practice.

    Also Buddhism splits up into groups where one works on one's own salvation, (the little raft) vs meditating for the salvation of all of mankind, (the big raft).

    So in answering the question, "Is God responsible?" the Buddhist answer is "well we are all apart of God so in that case YES...yes we are all responsible for the state we find ourselves in but we can decide to do something about it."

    I believe what some Christians fail to acknowledge that Bible is full of passages like Matthew 5:9 "they shall be the sons of God..."

    The Book of Matthew is one of favorites in the Bible as it contains the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus builds upon the commandments & not only calls for but demands action. In this manner, "Jesus is the way" is not solely dependent upon faith but upon doing as Jesus did, which was to care for his fellow man.

    Those who DO as Jesus DID shall be the sons of God. In their actions they climb in spiritual knowledge & nature. That IS the very nature of responsibility taken to it's Nth degree.

    The title of this thread implies that assumption that GOD is separate from Man. Personally that assumption instantly polarizes people & I do not find it to be true for myself so the question is essentially meaningless as it is not a true condition so addressing it is to be asking about the nature of a falsehood, (pure nonsense).

    It also implies certain Christian beliefs like GOD created the universe, that a singular all knowing omnipotent sentient being created a 3 dimensional world that a ignorant humanoid is born into & leaves 72.3, (on average) years later.

    I have also found this NOT to be true. However the pure blind faith that some materialist put into the Big Bang theory I find as equally as religious in its fervor.

    In my experience & process I have found books like Fritoj Capra's THE TAO OF PHYSICS very beneficial, (one of many books I read along they way). It helped me bring together my rational practical analytical self with my creative artistic spiritual self. For me it brought together the place where Science & Spirituality, (not necessarily religion) meet.

    And the essential question for me has been actually a practical one: If I follow a spiritual path does it make my life & the lives of those around me a better & does it make my community & the world around me a better place?

    So to answer the question of the thread in my own IS GOD RESPONSIBLE I would YES but I would also say WHO IS GOD? To that I would say to everyone, LOOK IN THE MIRROR. The more you accept the true nature of the divine within you the more responsible for this world you become.

    And for me personally that is essentially the root of "evil"..denial of self, denial of responsibility & even worse to get others to deny that reality as well.
    Last edited by kr1963; 12-09-2010 at 09:31 PM.

  6. #24
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    5,424

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    If you saw a piece of plywood directly head on, you couldn't tell if it was a box, a three sided figure, or just a piece of plywood standing on end. A walk around would clarify it's nature. Similarly, our 2D creature would first see the circle as a line or an arc, but if he took the trouble to walk around it and investigate, he'd soon realize that he was dealing with a circle. He would, however, have no concept of a three dimentional sphere. It would be as impossible for Mr. 2D to comprehend sphericalness as it is for mere mortals to comprehend God (to bring this hijack back on subject).
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

  7. #25

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    Great thread!

    My understanding is that through some combination of human evil and supernatural evil (the devil?) our world is really, really screwed up. Screwed up right down to the laws of genetics and geology, which makes it a harsh, brutal place inhabited by people who are likewise harsh and brutal. Right now, God is slowly at work fixing things by working through good people everywhere. Someday, Christians believe everything will be fixed for ever by God's supernatural power.

    I really wish I had answers for questions like "Why did such-and-such a bad thing happen"? In the book of Job, God is asked the question and his answer something like "If I explained it to you, you couldn't even begin to comprehend it".

  8. #26
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Clearwater, Florida, United States
    Posts
    7,028

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    I don't buy the incomprehensible argument.

    I would personally ask: is God separate from you? Does God control everything? Or are you apart of that divinity? Are you in anyway shape or form responsible for your own condition? your own life? your family? your groups? your fellow man? for other living things?

    If man has the POTENTIAL to become INFINITE or to RESTORE himself to a infinite spiritual nature, how much of a role does responsibility play in that growth or not?

    Is one's relationship with God dependent upon faith solely or upon ones' actions?

    I believe that the answer to your question (Why did such-and-such a bad thing happen"?) arm-spin, lies within the questions I posted.

    If you can define your beliefs & concept of God, then it is my personal belief that one's own definitions should also explain the nature of those problems & questions. If it can't then I would politely suggest that one's spiritual model of the world needed revising.

    To me the proof is in the pudding...does one's philosophy WORK....does it explain things & give one a base from which to operate...

  9. #27

    Default Re: God Is Responsible

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    The discussion about the Pennsylvania couple who relied on prayer to cure their sick son has given rise to the question of whether or not it is God's will/fault that evil exists.

    I'm starting this thread because I'm interested in what people have to say about this, and I may even chime in myself.
    Spider, I think most people on this site realize that in my view God is not an entity that has thoughts or thinks in any way shape or form. God is in essence an energy that has coexisted with all the matter and energy of the Universe for all time and that energy is what moves the Universe through its cycles and gives rise to life on any of the planets that have it and basically powers the whole Universe. It is not responsible for what the life forms that arise on Its planets do with that energy. It is through their manipulations of that energy that good and evil come into existence.
    Last edited by coachsparky; 12-11-2010 at 10:53 AM.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •