Furthermore, couldn't we also make the argument that low voter turnout rates favor republicans? Could that be why there is so much opposition to more people voting?
Yes, we can.
I'm in favor of all eligible voters getting the opportunity to cast one vote.
I don't understand the urgency of getting out the vote here in Philadelphia when more than the entire eligible population has already registered to vote.
I don't see the need for a NYer to give homeless people cigarettes in 2000 to vote for Gore, I don't see why homeless people need rides to vote early, I don't see why people aren't required in half the states to show ID of anykind, not even something as simple as a utility bill.
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Voting after the polls closed - I remember that when Ashcroft lost in Missouri in 2000 to a dead man that way.
Bigliosi is writing a book about trying Bush for murder now too - you wouldn't suggest him as an expert if you didn't agree with his opinion (I know that). And you wouldn't want me to set you up with an attorney that didn't agree with your conclusions.
If you were honestly a "believer in the rule of law" you'd admit that democrats have opposed all sensible poll reforms over the past 8 years. It would be crazy to think that they thought 2000 and 2004 were stolen from them and oppose voting reforms since.
They figure they make out on fraudulant votes. DNC areas in Miami had a voter turnout in 2000 of over 90% - that pretty much impossible.
Bush barely lost a few other states in 2000 - New Mexico, Iowa, Wisconsin and fraud was alleged in at least New Mexico. Florida only matters because Gore needed it to win.
If Gore managed to win his OWN state and Clinton's, he would have won anyways without Florida.
My agreeing with Bugliosi is irrelevant as to his expertise. I disagree with Karl Rove too, but he has a TON of expertise. I know nothing about Bugliosi's recent book, so I'm not really a fan.
I don't see where the Rule of Law relates to voting reforms. The one thing that I've learned in the too many years that I've followed politics is that there are usually nuances that one side chooses to not tell us as to why a group opposes a piece of legislation. I suspect that that is why the democrats are opposing these reforms; someone or something is being excluded.
As a GREAT case in point to the above: Yesterday, Cindy McCain was saying that Obama wouldn't fund our troops. On the surface we could think, "How horrible, he hates America and our troops!" Yet, the nuances showed why he didn't vote for the funding.
(She also conveniently didn't tell the crowd that her husband ALSO voted to not fund the troops, in the very same legislation!
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Why are you so upset that homeless people in Ohio have the same voting rights as everyone else?
Actually, the legality of this is in question has been questionned.
I don't get driven to the polls - I couldn't even get an absentee ballot 2 years ago. I'm sure rural americans won't be getting rides rides before election day.
You love it, because its a chance for fraud. They don't have an actual residence, they probably won't show ID, they just get a ride after getting a free meal and then vote Obama.
Most homeless have mental and/or substance problems. They aren't sound voters who understand what they are doing anyways and they weren't motivate enough to vote on their own anyways (can't imagine polls are too far away in a city like Cleveland).
In Wisconsin in 2000, they were bribed with cigarettes by a lady from NY.
__________________ In order to manage risk we must first understand risk. To understand risk, we must first define risk. How do you spot risk? How do you avoid risk and what makes it so risky?
My agreeing with Bugliosi is irrelevant as to his expertise. I disagree with Karl Rove too, but he has a TON of expertise. I know nothing about Bugliosi's recent book, so I'm not really a fan.
I don't see where the Rule of Law relates to voting reforms. The one thing that I've learned in the too many years that I've followed politics is that there are usually nuances that one side chooses to not tell us as to why a group opposes a piece of legislation. I suspect that that is why the democrats are opposing these reforms; someone or something is being excluded.
As a GREAT case in point to the above: Yesterday, Cindy McCain was saying that Obama wouldn't fund our troops. On the surface we could think, "How horrible, he hates America and our troops!" Yet, the nuances showed why he didn't vote for the funding.
(She also conveniently didn't tell the crowd that her husband ALSO voted to not fund the troops, in the very same legislation!
I honestly don't want you to think or have any basis for thinking fraud is taking place. The actions so far this year have been ACORN related.
Rule of law / voting reforms mean eligible people can vote only 1 time.
Republicans responded to all of democrat concerns (like the cost of getting an ID - they said the government would pay for it).
I live in a DNC hotbed and fraud happens (hope you read the WSJ story by Fund).
__________________ In order to manage risk we must first understand risk. To understand risk, we must first define risk. How do you spot risk? How do you avoid risk and what makes it so risky?
Actually, the legality of this is in question has been questionned. Question it all you want, it's still legal in Ohio. You have brought up homeless people specifically on several occasions, do you not think homeless people should have the same voting rights as everyone else?
I don't get driven to the polls Call up either campaigns headquarters in your area, I'm sure either would be happy to drive you to the polls - I couldn't even get an absentee ballot 2 years ago. I'm sure rural americans won't be getting rides rides before election day.
You love it, because its a chance for fraud. They don't have an actual residence Is an actual residence required for voting? I thought the only requirement was citizenship, shows what I know, they probably won't show ID is showing ID required to vote in Ohion?, they just get a ride after getting a free meal Is there any evidence of the people driving the homeless to the polls giving them free food? or are we just making up random accusations? and then vote Obama How do you know they're voting for Obama?.
Most homeless have mental and/or substance problems Does that disqualify them from voting?. They aren't sound voters who understand what they are doing anyways so they're just like the majority of voters with homes? and they weren't motivate enough to vote on their own anyways motivation is a requirement to vote now too? when did we switch from you having to be a citizen to you having to be a citizen with a residence who is motivated, informed and substance free (can't imagine polls are too far away in a city like Cleveland).
In Wisconsin in 2000, they were bribed with cigarettes by a lady from NY. Who's they? the homeless people in Ohio? Someone drove them all the way to Wisconsin and gave them cigarettes?
type type type
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Homeless people are usually crazy - do you admit that? They are being fed and then driven to both register and vote since it's expected they will vote for Obama.
Its also to verify their residency (since they don't even have a home). They could vote again later too (why not, no controls under this system)
I was calling like crazy for an absentee ballot 2 years ago, lol at getting a ride.
You have to be a resident of that state to vote in that state and some states matter more than others (since some are solid blue or red and others are up for grabs).
They were picked up at a soup kitchen (you can dismiss my comment if you think its a stretch).
It's a pro Obama group taking them. They are targeting likely democrats in swing states.
The mental problem makes them influential. If you don't have your shit together enough to register and show up to vote (they obviously don't have jobs to go to), then why pressure them to vote? Sure they don't know shit about the issues (unless they take newspapers out of garbage cans to read them). Who knows what's said to them when they are getting driven by an Obama group.
Here, this article also deals with the mental aspects I mentioned: (I have a good memory for this stuff)
The NBC affiliate in Milwaukee has just filmed Democratic campaign workers handing out small amounts of money and free food to residents at a home for the mentally ill in Kenosha after which the patients were shepherded into a separate room and given absentee ballots. One of the Democratic Party workers fled when she saw the NBC camera. The local district attorney is investigating.
Traditionally a clean government state, Wisconsin is now paying for its loose election laws. In 2000 its same-day voter-registration law was abused by Connie Milstein, a New York Democratic activist, who was caught on camera bribing the homeless with cigarettes to vote for Al Gore. She was later fined $5,000. (Several Wisconsin politicians were also recently charged with violating state campaign laws.)
The mentally ill in Kenosha have a right to vote, but Wisconsin Common Cause director Jay Heck says the NBC footage showed Democratic workers engaged in "manipulative" behavior with a group that was "clearly developmentally disabled." The center ordered absentee ballots on behalf of all the residents and then allowed Democratic workers to run a bingo game there. The residents were induced to vote with free refreshments and quarters as bingo prizes.
__________________ In order to manage risk we must first understand risk. To understand risk, we must first define risk. How do you spot risk? How do you avoid risk and what makes it so risky?
Homeless people are usually crazy - do you admit that?
Absolutely not...your stereotypical crazy babbling on the street maybe, but I remember seeing statistics that largest percentage of homeless were single women with children, maybe they should not be allowed to vote either or we should at least make it difficult for them to get to poll by making sure there are no free rides.
Voter fraud is a red herring. It might happen in isolated incident, but it does have any impact on the election. A republican study concluded this as well
(don't ask me to find this, I am pulling this from memory).
Your instance of bribing voters with cigarettes is an entierly different case. No question about that not being right.
Yet that is the only real case that I remember seeing about true voter fraud, and that includes the crazy democratic conspiracy about vote fixing in Ohio in 2004.
I do think the idea of picking up homeless people and driving them to vote is somewhat suspicious. I think most everyone agrees giving them cigs to vote for a certain candidate is wrong. How 'bout giving them food to vote for Obama? Is giving them some new clothes to vote for Obama wrong? If it's cold, they may simply want the heat provided in the Obama bus.
I want every US citizen to vote if he/she chooses to. I don't like the idea of providing a ride, a meal, a pack of cigs, etc. by either campaign.
With respect to the large number of new voter registrants in Ohio... what do they have to do to show citizenship? How does a homeless person verify who he is? I know this question sounds silly, but if you're not allowed to ask for ID, how do you verify someone is eligible to vote (according to the US Constitution)? I sincerely don't know.
Why shouldn't even a "crazy" homeless person be allowed to vote? Those who are uninformed, unintelligent, conspiracy theorists, racists, total jerks, etc are allowed to vote... why shouldn't a mentally challenged person? If only the competent and intelligent were allowed to vote, a lot of currently eligible voters would be denied.
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