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Thread: Religion out of the Question Thread

  1. #1

    Default Religion out of the Question Thread

    So as not to continue to hijact the question thread I wanted to start this. First here are most of the posts from that thread regarding religion.

    <O</O
    coachsparky <O></O>
    Re: The Questions Thread <O></O>
    Originally Posted by Spider <O></O>
    My objection to Christian beliefs as I understand them is that I feel it is incorrect to portray Jesus as the son of God, or as anything more than a very forward thinking human being. I support the teachings of how to relate to our fellow man, "do unto others," and love and peace and cooperation, but not the spirituality or the divine source of these ideas.<O></O>
    The Bible does not teach that Jesus is any more the child of God than any other human being. It is the preachers of the religions that interpret the Bible that way. Unitarian Christians see Jesus as unique among humans but not as God.<O></O>
    Ask yourself which sounds more mythical?that the universe really is billions of years old or that it is 6,000 years old but was created to look just like it is billions of years old?<O></O>
    Spider <O></O>
    Re: The Questions Thread <O></O>
    Originally Posted by coachsparky <O></O>
    The Bible does not teach that Jesus is any more the child of God than any other human being. It is the preachers of the religions that interpret the Bible that way. Unitarian Christians see Jesus as unique among humans but not as God.<O></O>
    So if Christian religious leaders teach that Jesus is the son of God, isn't that a Christian belief? Also, doesn't the Bible teach that Jesus was resurrected after death? Wouldn't that make him a divine being? If I'm wrong (very possible), then maybe I just don't know enough about Christianity to answer the question.<O></O>
    "Love never dies." The Beatles<O></O>
    coachsparky <O></O>
    Re: The Questions Thread <O></O>
    Originally Posted by Spider<O></O>
    So if Christian religious leaders teach that Jesus is the son of God, isn't that a Christian belief? Also, doesn't the Bible teach that Jesus was resurrected after death? Wouldn't that make him a divine being? If I'm wrong (very possible), then maybe I just don't know enough about Christianity to answer the question.<O></O>
    According to Christian teaching and the Bible, all of us will be resurrected after death. I suppose the Bible teaches that all of us are divine then?<O></O>
    Ask yourself which sounds more mythical?that the universe really is billions of years old or that it is 6,000 years old but was created to look just like it is billions of years old?<O></O>
    Spider <O></O>
    Re: The Questions Thread <O></O>
    Originally Posted by coachsparky <O></O>
    According to Christian teaching and the Bible, all of us will be resurrected after death. I suppose the Bible teaches that all of us are divine then?<O></O>
    Only if we accept Jesus. But hey, you're talking to the wrong guy here. I only told you what my understanding of Christianity is. I'm not a Christian, wasn't raised Christian, and don't believe any of it, so if you are trying to tell me I'm wrong about it, you're preaching to the choir (heh, heh).<O></O>
    "Love never dies." The Beatles<O></O>
    coachsparky <O></O>
    Re: The Questions Thread <O></O>
    Originally Posted by Spider <O></O>
    Only if we accept Jesus. But hey, you're talking to the wrong guy here. I only told you what my understanding of Christianity is. I'm not a Christian, wasn't raised Christian, and don't believe any of it, so if you are trying to tell me I'm wrong about it, you're preaching to the choir (heh, heh).<O></O>
    Again that is a misinterpretation of what the Bible says. The Bible says "all" are saved, not just some.<O></O>
    Ask yourself which sounds more mythical?that the universe really is billions of years old or that it is 6,000 years old but was created to look just like it is billions of years old?<O></O>
    Spider <O></O>
    Re: The Questions Thread <O></O>
    Originally Posted by coachsparky <O></O>
    Again that is a misinterpretation of what the Bible says. The Bible says "all" are saved, not just some.<O></O>
    As I said, I'm no biblical scholar.<O></O>
    "Love never dies." The Beatles<O></O>
    UGLY <O></O>
    Re: The Questions Thread <O</O
    Originally Posted by coachsparky <O</O
    Again that is a misinterpretation of what the Bible says. The Bible says "all" are saved, not just some.<O></O>
    Of course everyone but you its misinterpreting the bible<O</O
    arm-spin <O></O>
    Re: The Questions Thread <O</O
    Yay! Another religion hijack!<O</O
    quinn14 <O></O>
    Re: The Questions Thread <O</O
    Originally Posted by coachsparky <O</O
    Again that is a misinterpretation of what the Bible says. The Bible says "all" are saved, not just some.<O></O>
    Dude, you really have NO IDEA what you are talking about. All aren't saved. Only those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and the Son of God. That is in every Christian religion from Catholics to Baptists, to Pentacostal. It is the foundation of the religion. I don't care whether you believe or not, but don't try and misrepresent those of us who do.<O</O


  2. #2

    Default Re: Religion out of the Question Thread

    More posts from the Question Thread

    Spider <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
    Re: The Questions Thread <o></o>
    Originally Posted by quinn14 <o></o>
    All aren't saved. Only those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and the Son of God.<o></o>
    NOT A RE-HIJACK

    Regardless of who's right, to reiterate my answer to the original question, that's my main objection to the Christian beliefs.<o></o>

    "Love never dies." The Beatles<o></o>
    Spider <o></o>
    Re: The Questions Thread <o></o>
    Originally Posted by quinn14 <o></o>
    Left foot sweep into a head and arm with less than a minute to go in the match that qualified me for State the first time. I was down by 3 and won by 2.<o></o>
    I wonder if that's the other guy's least memorable wrestling moment.<o></o>
    "Love never dies." The Beatles<o></o>
    quinn14 <o></o>
    Re: The Questions Thread <o></o>
    Originally Posted by Spider <o></o>
    NOT A RE-HIJACK

    Regardless of who's right, to reiterate my answer to the original question, that's my main objection to the Christian beliefs.<o></o>

    That is what every non-believer's problem is. So at least you are consistant. But, so am I.<o></o>
    LkwdSteve <o></o>
    Re: The Questions Thread <o></o>
    "For those of you who are not Christians what is your main objection to the Christian beliefs? Not to the people themselves just the beliefs"

    I was Baptist. The problems were twofold, at least there were the two issues that opened my eyes, so-to-speak, when I was in my early teens:

    1. The pretty viscious condemnation of homosexuals that struck me as way wrong, especially as a friend if mine was clearly homosexual (or going to be). Even (or because!) he was at an early age it seemed that it was something out of his control. So we had a conflict between a Christian teaching of tolerance and the anti-homosexual rantings of our preacher.

    2. The virulent anti-Catholic sentiments that raged among the Baptists. MY grandmother I think really believed that JFK was the anti-Christ. That is, until he was assassinated. I remember walking home from school on 11-22-63 and wondering what her reaction would be. Watching her closely when I arrived home, her comment to me and my sisters was "well......you don't really want to see that happen to anyone". Not quite a shrug of the shoulders, but close. I think subsequent events had the effect of persuading her that JFK was actually a human being, and maybe a good human being.

    I also had friend or two at school who were Catholic.<o></o>

    quinn14 <o></o>
    Re: The Questions Thread <o></o>
    Originally Posted by LkwdSteve <o></o>
    "For those of you who are not Christians what is your main objection to the Christian beliefs? Not to the people themselves just the beliefs"<o></o>
    Although I am a Christian, I would like to answer that question.

    Like you, I have problems with certain people acting "Holier than Thou". I couldn't, myself, put down any denomination. Denominations, IMO, are like personalities. If you are the quiet type then you will probably like Presbyterian, if you follow rules well, you might choose Baptist. If you like to dance and sing, Pentacostal ect...

    But when people put down an entire group of people because of a few bad apples it is just like racism to me. My church (Vineyard) was formed by a group of surfers behind lifeguard chair number 9 on Huntington Beach. They were long-haired hippies who weren't accepted by conventional churches. All they wanted to do was love and serve God, so they formed their own church. It is now nationwide. We have electric guitars, bass, drums and hard rock music. You will see "goth" kids in there sitting next to 60something retirees. It's come as you are and our preacher wears shorts, flip-flops and a golf shirt most times. We are looked at as "crazy" to other churches, but as long as you accept Jesus as your Saviour, he doesn't really care what you're wearing, as long as you are learning from the Bible.<o></o>

    Spider <o></o>
    Re: The Questions Thread <o></o>
    Originally Posted by quinn14<o></o>
    . . . as long as you accept Jesus as your Saviour, he doesn't really care what you're wearing, as long as you are learning from the Bible.<o></o>
    And if you don't accept Jesus as your savior and don't believe that the Bible is the word of God, then . . . ?

    He will feel sorry for you? He will try to "save" you? Or he will respect your beliefs and admit that it is possible that you are right and he is wrong. Unless the answer is door number three, that's what I don't like about Christianity, or actually almost all organized religions.<o></o>

    "Love never dies." The Beatles<o></o>
    quinn14 <o></o>
    Re: The Questions Thread <o></o>
    Originally Posted by Spider <o></o>
    And if you don't accept Jesus as your savior and don't believe that the Bible is the word of God, then . . . ?

    He will feel sorry for you? He will try to "save" you? Or he will respect your beliefs and admit that it is possible that you are right and he is wrong. Unless the answer is door number three, that's what I don't like about Christianity, or actually almost all organized religions.<o></o>

    He (God) will feel sorry for you and try to convert you. To think you are smarter than God is pretty pompous. But, pompousness is the very seed of sin, so we all have it.

    God works in mysterious ways and maybe you and I being on the same website is a way to save us both. You never know!<o></o>

    Spider <o></o>
    Re: The Questions Thread <o></o>
    The "he" I was referring to was your preacher. If God exists, I believe all I have to do to be in His good graces is to lead a good life and treat my fellow man well.<o></o>
    "Love never dies." The Beatles<o></o>

  3. #3

    Default Re: Religion out of the Question Thread

    fficeffice" /><O></O>
    There are two specific posts in here I want to respond to. The first is from UGLY
    UGLY <O></O>
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    Super Moderator <v:shape style="WIDTH: 75.75pt; HEIGHT: 17.25pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_215 alt="http://www.thewrestlingtalk.com/images/global-mod.gif" o:spid="_x0000_i1044" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image003.gif" o:title="global-mod"></v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 6pt; HEIGHT: 7.5pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_216 alt="UGLY is a National Champion" o:spid="_x0000_i1043" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image004.png" o:title="UGLY is a National Champion"></v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 6pt; HEIGHT: 7.5pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_217 alt="UGLY is a National Champion" o:spid="_x0000_i1042" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image004.png" o:title="UGLY is a National Champion"></v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 6pt; HEIGHT: 7.5pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_218 alt="UGLY is a National Champion" o:spid="_x0000_i1041" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image004.png" o:title="UGLY is a National Champion"></v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 6pt; HEIGHT: 7.5pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_219 alt="UGLY is a National Champion" o:spid="_x0000_i1040" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image004.png" o:title="UGLY is a National Champion"></v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 6pt; HEIGHT: 7.5pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_220 alt="UGLY is a National Champion" o:spid="_x0000_i1039" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image004.png" o:title="UGLY is a National Champion"></v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 6pt; HEIGHT: 7.5pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_221 alt="UGLY is a National Champion" o:spid="_x0000_i1038" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image006.png" o:title="UGLY is a National Champion"></v:imagedata></v:shape><v:shape style="WIDTH: 60pt; HEIGHT: 48.75pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_222 title='"UGLY is offline"' alt="UGLY's Avatar" o:spid="_x0000_i1037" type="#_x0000_t75" href="http://www.thewrestlingtalk.com/members/ugly/" o:button="t"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image008.jpg" o:title="UGLY's Avatar"></v:imagedata></v:shape><O></O>

    <HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">

    Join Date<O></O>

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    <v:shape style="WIDTH: 12pt; HEIGHT: 12pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_224 alt="Default" o:spid="_x0000_i1036" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image009.gif" o:title="Default"></v:imagedata></v:shape>Re: The Questions Thread <O></O>
    <v:shape style="WIDTH: 13.5pt; HEIGHT: 8.25pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_225 alt="Quote" o:spid="_x0000_i1035" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image010.png" o:title="Quote"></v:imagedata></v:shape>Originally Posted by coachsparky<v:shape style="WIDTH: 9pt; HEIGHT: 7.5pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_226 alt="View Post" o:spid="_x0000_i1034" type="#_x0000_t75" href="http://www.thewrestlingtalk.com/politics-and-religion/137007-the-questions-thread-6.html#post326302" o:button="t"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image012.png" o:title="View Post"></v:imagedata></v:shape><O></O>
    Again that is a misinterpretation of what the Bible says. The Bible says "all" are saved, not just some.<O></O>
    Of course everyone but you its misinterpreting the bible<O></O>
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    <O></O>
    No UGLY, I am not alone in my interpretation of the Bible. There are tens of millions of people who agree with me. Unitarian Universalits, Biblical Untitarians, Biblical Universalist and many many many more.
    <v:shape style="WIDTH: 12pt; HEIGHT: 12pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_350 alt="Default" o:spid="_x0000_i1031" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image009.gif" o:title="Default"></v:imagedata></v:shape>

    Re: The Questions Thread <O></O>
    <v:shape style="WIDTH: 13.5pt; HEIGHT: 8.25pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_351 alt="Quote" o:spid="_x0000_i1030" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image010.png" o:title="Quote"></v:imagedata></v:shape>Originally Posted by coachsparky<v:shape style="WIDTH: 9pt; HEIGHT: 7.5pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_352 alt="View Post" o:spid="_x0000_i1029" type="#_x0000_t75" href="http://www.thewrestlingtalk.com/politics-and-religion/137007-the-questions-thread-6.html#post326302" o:button="t"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\Bob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\cl ip_image012.png" o:title="View Post"></v:imagedata></v:shape><O></O>
    Again that is a misinterpretation of what the Bible says. The Bible says "all" are saved, not just some.<O></O>
    Dude, you really have NO IDEA what you are talking about. All aren't saved. Only those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and the Son of God. That is in every Christian religion from Catholics to Baptists, to Pentacostal. It is the foundation of the religion. I don't care whether you believe or not, but don't try and misrepresent those of us who do.<O></O>
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    <O></O>
    Oh contraire my dear Quinn. If you believe the Bible is true, let me ask you how you justify making the claim that these passages do not mean that ?all? are saved but only a few select when they clearly say ?all.? Is the Bible lying?


    1 Tim 4:10
    <SUP>10</SUP>(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.<O></O>
    <O
    ></O>
    1 Tim 2:6
    the man Christ Jesus, <SUP id=en-NIV-29707>6</SUP>who gave himself as a ransom for all men


    1Cor. 15:22-28.
    and that although all are now dying in Adam, "so in Christ will all be made alive--but each in his own order" <O></O>
    Last edited by coachsparky; 07-11-2010 at 02:40 PM.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion out of the Question Thread

    I agree with both citations of scripture. Jesus is the savior for all men if you believe in him. He died for the sins of all people but the kingdom of heaven os not open to those who do not believe in him or his sacrifice by follwing the written word. I think the bible is explicit in this.

    He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)

    "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me;" (John 5:39)

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh." (John 6:47-51)

    "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." (John 8:12)

    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

    And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. (1 Timothy 1:16)
    Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus, (2 Timothy 1:1)

    And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. (1 John 5:11)
    Last edited by UGLY; 07-12-2010 at 07:44 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Religion out of the Question Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    I agree with both citations of scripture. Jesus is the savior for all men if you believe in him. He died for the sins of all people but the kingdom of heaven os not open to those who do not believe in him or his sacrifice by follwing the written word. I think the bible is explicit in this.

    He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)

    "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me;" (John 5:39)

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh." (John 6:47-51)

    "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." (John 8:12)

    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

    And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. (1 Timothy 1:16)

    Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus, (2 Timothy 1:1)

    And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. (1 John 5:11)
    You are misreading the quotes I posted. All of them say all men are saved, regardless of what they believe, AND especially not only those who believe. It it had been an exclusive statement that said NOT all men are saved but ONLY those that believe in Jesus you would be right, but as it is you are wrong and the Bible very clearly makes the claim that ALL men are saved.

    So UGLY you are saying the Bible lies. That is an interesting take. I did not know you could be a Christian and believe that the Bible lies.

  6. #6
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Religion out of the Question Thread

    Sparky did you read the scripture I posted, which all clearly state that belief in Christ is required for salvation? I didnt want to have to go to the most recognized scripture in the world but I will

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

    Let me know how you think this is me thinking the bible lies.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Religion out of the Question Thread

    He can be the Saviour of all men, if all men accept him as their Saviour. If you don't believe in him, you will not be saved.

    Romans 10:9- That if you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    Your quote that he is a ransom for all men is true. A ransom must be paid, though. Watch any movie where someone is kidnapped and a ransom put on their head. They are only saved when the ransom is paid. The ransom is what I just posted above.

    John 3:3- In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

    You have some interesting takes on the Bible, some I have never heard anyone else say. I hope it all works out for you.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Religion out of the Question Thread

    Good idea starting a new thread coachsparky!

    I don't have time to get involved in this one, but here's a link about people who understand heaven/hell/salvation the way sparky does, while otherwise holding onto traditional christian beliefs: www.tentmaker.org

  9. #9

    Default Re: Religion out of the Question Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    He can be the Saviour of all men, if all men accept him as their Saviour. If you don't believe in him, you will not be saved.

    Romans 10:9- That if you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    Your quote that he is a ransom for all men is true. A ransom must be paid, though. Watch any movie where someone is kidnapped and a ransom put on their head. They are only saved when the ransom is paid. The ransom is what I just posted above.

    John 3:3- In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

    You have some interesting takes on the Bible, some I have never heard anyone else say. I hope it all works out for you.
    It will definitely quinn, I can guarantee you that without any doubt whatsoever, that part of us that remains after death will end up together in the same place for all living creatures on earth, not just men and women but all living creatures.

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