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  1. #1

    Default Abortion/manslaughter

    Putting aside what anyone thinks about abortion, let me know what you all think about this.

    Abortion is legal. So, a woman can decide to have an abortion with or without the concent of the father. It just happens to be the law no matter what your views are. So, the courts are saying that a person isn't a person until it's born. That is apparent with abortion being legal. So, since it isn't a person, a doctor isn't a murderer for performing an abortion. That is what the law says and that is what we all have to realize before this debate can go any further. I would like to read what you all think about this situation that I just heard about on the radio. Legally, not emotionally, how can this happen?

    A pregnant, drunk, girl was driving her car. She got into a wreck and survived, but her (child, fetus, whatever you call it) did not. She was charged with vehicular homicide for the death of that the unborn child.

    Couldn't she have an argument here?

  2. #2
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abortion/manslaughter

    I agree. It is definitely a contradiction to say that to destroy a fetus on purpose is legal, but to destroy it through a negligent act is a crime. Perhaps in this case, the pregnancy was in the final weeks or days when an abortion would not have been allowed. More likely, the prosecutor is trying to make a point regarding his personal opinion on abortion.
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    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abortion/manslaughter

    I might be wrong but I believe it is illegal to perform an abortion at home on your own. I think while abortion is legal it has to be done in a certain manner, so that might be a loop hle here. Spider could be right and the act took place in the third trimester of the pregnancy which is a time when it is illegal to have an abortion. Spider could also be correct in assuming this is a political statement but it could be about drunk driving for the prosecutor as it is abortion. I think it all comes down to the first two issues I stated and Spider theorized. Is a home abortion illegal and how far along was the pregnancy.

    One other issue that Spider brought up, that this act was negligent. I dont think driving drunk is negligent it is purposeful so that might create a hinge point for a jury.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Abortion/manslaughter

    I'm not sure what trimester she was in. I didn't know that mattered because I've heard of doctors performing abortions in the third trimester. I think the last abortion doctor that was gunned down (I think in a Kansas church) did these types of abortions. I'm not positive on that, though. I've never heard of a case like this one, though. Would a ruling on this one way or the other set a precedent?

    I don't know about anyone else, but if I was this girl I'd fight this as hard as I could. Vehicular homicide has prison time, DUI just has a fine and 3 days in the county jail or a rehab facility.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Abortion/manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    I'm not sure what trimester she was in. I didn't know that mattered because I've heard of doctors performing abortions in the third trimester. I think the last abortion doctor that was gunned down (I think in a Kansas church) did these types of abortions. I'm not positive on that, though. I've never heard of a case like this one, though. Would a ruling on this one way or the other set a precedent?

    I don't know about anyone else, but if I was this girl I'd fight this as hard as I could. Vehicular homicide has prison time, DUI just has a fine and 3 days in the county jail or a rehab facility.
    Abortions are only legal in the third trimester if you can demonstrate it was done to protect the life or health of the mother. And yes the last abortion doctor to be gunned down was one of the few available to perform that service to help protect the health of the mother.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Abortion/manslaughter

    The above was from cursory purusal of google search results.

    I still don't see this as an abortion issue from a prosecutor's standpoint. A prosecutor could be pro abortion and still easily seek a wrongful death indictment if it is in accord with a state's laws. A judge should view it the same way.

    While there are many comments about how a state laws SHOULD be written (wise or not--ethically/morally), I would restrict my comments on this issue as to how a state's laws ARE written (clear or not--easy to interpret and apply).
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Abortion/manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by coachsparky View Post
    Abortions are only legal in the third trimester if you can demonstrate it was done to protect the life or health of the mother. And yes the last abortion doctor to be gunned down was one of the few available to perform that service to help protect the health of the mother.
    Okay, so playing the part of the defense attorney, am I allowed to say this?

    Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we all know that driving drunk is a horrible decision every single time. And my client (dramatic turn and point) did just that! Is she guilty of a DUI and stupidity? Hell yes she is! My appologies to the court for the cursing. Does she deserve to pay that fine and do her time? Yes she does!!

    But, ladies and gentlemen, we are not here to decide that. We are here to decide whether or not my client (client coached to wipe tears now) deserves to be found guilty of homicide. It has already been ruled in court cases before us, that women in their last trimester can have an abortion if it is in the intrest to save their own lives. (I really don't know what trimester it was, but I'm on a roll). On that fateful night, the same night that my client had too much to drink, most of us were nestled safely in our beds. Can I have a show of hands for anyone that overcompensated during a curve in the road?

    I know I have. Show of hands for anyone who has been in a car crash. I know I have. Anybody remember what they were thinking when it happened? If you're like me, you acted instinctually. You braced yourself, turned your head and probably screamed. In this case, thrusting her stomach towards the steering wheel was the only way to save herself.

    Ladies and gentlemen, I implore you to use your best judgement here. Did my client needlessly cause the end of her pregnancy (I wouldn't call it a child just for effect) or was she simply saving herself much like what doctors do on an operating table every single day in America? Was she wrong for driving? Yes. Was she wrong for saving herself? Well, that's for you to decide.

    The defense rests its case, your honor.

  8. #8
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abortion/manslaughter

    You're allowed to say almost anything you want, but I think the part about thrusting her stomach out to save herself in spite of her pregnancy is a stretch (and will leave marks - ha, ha). The fact is that her DUI was the direct cause of the death of the fetus is a given, and the only issue is whether or not killing a fetus constitutes manslaughter. I don't see this as any different from a drunk driver hitting a pregnant woman and causing the death of her fetus. In that case, I believe that the crime of killing an "almost person" makes the offense (and should make the punishment) worse than if no fetus were involved, but it doesn't rise to the level of manslaughter.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Abortion/manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by quinn14 View Post
    Okay, so playing the part of the defense attorney, am I allowed to say this?

    Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we all know that driving drunk is a horrible decision every single time. And my client (dramatic turn and point) did just that! Is she guilty of a DUI and stupidity? Hell yes she is! My appologies to the court for the cursing. Does she deserve to pay that fine and do her time? Yes she does!!

    But, ladies and gentlemen, we are not here to decide that. We are here to decide whether or not my client (client coached to wipe tears now) deserves to be found guilty of homicide. It has already been ruled in court cases before us, that women in their last trimester can have an abortion if it is in the intrest to save their own lives. (I really don't know what trimester it was, but I'm on a roll). On that fateful night, the same night that my client had too much to drink, most of us were nestled safely in our beds. Can I have a show of hands for anyone that overcompensated during a curve in the road?

    I know I have. Show of hands for anyone who has been in a car crash. I know I have. Anybody remember what they were thinking when it happened? If you're like me, you acted instinctually. You braced yourself, turned your head and probably screamed. In this case, thrusting her stomach towards the steering wheel was the only way to save herself.

    Ladies and gentlemen, I implore you to use your best judgement here. Did my client needlessly cause the end of her pregnancy (I wouldn't call it a child just for effect) or was she simply saving herself much like what doctors do on an operating table every single day in America? Was she wrong for driving? Yes. Was she wrong for saving herself? Well, that's for you to decide.

    The defense rests its case, your honor.
    It would give me reason to vote for a conviction of reckless endangerment instead of homocide. That would probably make the drunk slut feel better.

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