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Thread: Mark McGwire

  1. #10
    World Champ ODH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mark McGwire

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapp Brannigan View Post
    Firstly, it's been pretty much agreed that McGwire's rookie season, when he hit a rookie record 49 HR's, was clean, so I'm not sure that he wasn't a "HOF player before steroids". Regarding Rice, how do we know he wasn't on steroids? That's my point. Steroids became a newspaper talking point in the late 1990's, but they were around a lot longer then that.
    I do remeber his rookie year, I also remember that he did not have the same level of success until much later in his career, which was assumed when he started juicing. Again, I am no longer follow baseball that closely, so you can correct me if my recollection is off.

    I am not taking a position on whether Rice was juicing or not. The articles I read said that he got into the HOF because he was percieved as being clean. Personally, even as a former die-hard Red sox fan, I don't think Rice had a HOF career.

    I don't know how you can just ignore admitted steriod use when considering HOF credentials.

    BTW, I think it should have counted against Phil Neikro for being known as a spitballer. Ty Cobb was an a-hole, but that did not effect his baseball accomplsihments and Pete Rose should be in the HOF

  2. #11
    Super Moderator Zapp Brannigan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mark McGwire

    Quote Originally Posted by ODH View Post
    I do remeber his rookie year, I also remember that he did not have the same level of success until much later in his career, which was assumed when he started juicing. Again, I am no longer follow baseball that closely, so you can correct me if my recollection is off.

    I am not taking a position on whether Rice was juicing or not. The articles I read said that he got into the HOF because he was percieved as being clean. Personally, even as a former die-hard Red sox fan, I don't think Rice had a HOF career.

    I don't know how you can just ignore admitted steriod use when considering HOF credentials.

    BTW, I think it should have counted against Phil Neikro for being known as a spitballer. Ty Cobb was an a-hole, but that did not effect his baseball accomplsihments and Pete Rose should be in the HOF
    My point is, news coverage today is far different then it was in the older days. Mickey Mantle was a raging alcoholic and womanizer, but nobody tlaked about these things. Reporters were friends with the players, they kept secrets. And steroids weren't even known about by the general public, even though they were in use. Not to mention steroids were not against the rules when McGwire used them. Kind of like amphetamines (what many current writers call baseballs dirty little secret), which are used to get through the long, slogging season. ALmost all players were on amphetamines of some kind, so should ALL records now be tainted?
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  3. #12
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    Default Re: Mark McGwire

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapp Brannigan View Post
    My point is, news coverage today is far different then it was in the older days. Mickey Mantle was a raging alcoholic and womanizer, but nobody tlaked about these things. Reporters were friends with the players, they kept secrets. And steroids weren't even known about by the general public, even though they were in use. Not to mention steroids were not against the rules when McGwire used them. Kind of like amphetamines (what many current writers call baseballs dirty little secret), which are used to get through the long, slogging season. ALmost all players were on amphetamines of some kind, so should ALL records now be tainted?
    You have a point with steroids not being against the rules.
    I know many players took speed, but it did not effect their performance the way steroids did. I think sportswriters will not vote a player into the HOF if they believe they would not have been a top player without steroids. It will be interesting to see in Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens get into the HOF. Clearly, two of the best baseball players ever and it is generally believe that they would have been even if they stayed clean. Clemen's career would not have been as long and bonds would not have hit as many HRs, but they still would have been HOFers. Of course this is all suuposition, as we do not know when they started juicing and what their career woudl hav ebeen without steroids.

  4. #13

    Default Re: Mark McGwire

    People who vote for the HOF always say that the credentials are whether or not he was a Hall of Famer compared to the people he played against. McGwire clearly was. Yes, he took steroids, but so did a lot of the pitchers he was hitting against. I don't condone there actions, but it seems like a pretty fair playing field when you have Roger Clemens all juiced up pitching to a juiced up McGwire.

    By the way, I can only name three homerun hitters from that era that have not been accused of steroids. Griffey, Frank Thomas, and Jim Thome. Can anyone else think of one? My friends and I have been racking or brains.

  5. #14

    Default Re: Mark McGwire

    I think the steroid thing rage is dumb, and should probably just be ignored when thinking aboug HOF voting, esp considering pitchers were using, too, but they were definitely illegal when McGwire was using them. Steroids were included on a banned substances list by then Commish Faye Vincent in 1991, they just didn't test and didn't really seem to care. Practically that is probably as good as being legal, I guess, but that's another matter.

  6. #15

    Default Re: Mark McGwire

    This whole thing about people crying over Mark McGwire is nuts. Watching PTI last night had me shaking my head.

    While they (Wilborn and Kornheiser), AND SOME ON HERE, thought the McGwire-Sosa circus was fantastic as they watched it unfold, I thought it was CREEPY. That whole process was sickening and it turned me off to baseball.

    When I was young, the players and abilities were real. Putting McGwire and Sosa with the likes of The Brew, Mantle, The Say Hey Kid, Frank Robinson, and Henry Aaron, is ridiculous.

    They would have struggled to make it with a major league team, forget being stars.

    HOF? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! @@@@ ^^.
    DSCH: a Soviet artist's reply to unjust criticism.

  7. #16

    Default Re: Mark McGwire

    Quote Originally Posted by LkwdSteve View Post
    When I was young, the players and abilities were real. Putting McGwire and Sosa with the likes of The Brew, Mantle, The Say Hey Kid, Frank Robinson, and Henry Aaron, is ridiculous.
    The abilities of guys on steroids playing against other guys on steroids is not real, but the abilities of guys on amphetamines playing against other guys on amphetamines is real?
    There's no such thing as a pretty good aligator wrestler.

  8. #17

    Default Re: Mark McGwire

    Quote Originally Posted by ODH View Post
    You have a point with steroids not being against the rules.
    I know many players took speed, but it did not effect their performance the way steroids did. I think sportswriters will not vote a player into the HOF if they believe they would not have been a top player without steroids. It will be interesting to see in Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens get into the HOF. Clearly, two of the best baseball players ever and it is generally believe that they would have been even if they stayed clean. Clemen's career would not have been as long and bonds would not have hit as many HRs, but they still would have been HOFers. Of course this is all suuposition, as we do not know when they started juicing and what their career woudl hav ebeen without steroids.
    The major league baseball players actually did take speed to HELP their game. They would often times take it on road trips, and after long games when they didn't get enough sleep to "wake" them up and keep them alert. In a sense it is doing the same thing that steroids would, it's allowing them to perform at a higher lever than they naturally would. They even had two pots of coffee in the locker room, one was regular coffee which they called "unleaded" the other was "leaded" and had speed in it.

    I don't see how you can keep some of the steroid users out of the HOF unless you keep everyone from this era out. What if later we find out that Griffey used them? or a guy like Nolan Ryan? Steroids were rampant in baseball and I bet that HGH still is since baseball still doesn't do a blood test for them. Sure the players are a lot more cautious about how they get/take them.

    I would like to see McGwire, Sosa, Bonds (whom I hate with a passion), Clemens and others get into the hall. Their numbers don't lie. I'd also like to see a plaque put up describing the rampant steroid use during that time and that there were many players that took steroids from every team.

  9. #18

    Default Re: Mark McGwire

    It's Obama's fault. He supplied the steroids and the syringes.

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