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Thread: Do Science & Spirituality ever meet?

  1. #1
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Do Science & Spirituality ever meet?

    A bunch of us were getting into the discussion on the HELL thread about the limitations of a 2 valued logic in an arguement such as IS THERE A HELL OR NOT?

    It was falling within the confines of traditonal Christian thinking vs traditional western scientific thinking.

    I introduced the idea that there may be another way to look at it which lead us OUT of HELL & into another discussion so this is why I statred this thread.

    See here to catch up on the discussion;
    http://www.thewrestlingtalk.com/poli...83-hell-6.html

    Add your 2 cents if u wanna....

  2. #2
    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do Science & Spirituality ever meet?

    THIS IS A REPOST from the HELL thread:

    There are several books that explore the places where science & spirituality meet OR a place where the explainable & unexplainable meet. Some of my favorites are:


    The Tao of Physics, by University of Vienna Physics professor Fritoj Capra
    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Physics-3rd-Updated/dp/0877735948/"][/ame] [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Physics-3rd-Updated/dp/0877735948/"]Amazon.com: The Tao Of Physics (3rd Edition-Updated)...[/ame]


    The Hypothesis of Formative Causation by Biochemist Rupert Sheldrake

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake


    Wholeness & Implicate Order by the late Penn State Professor of Physics David Bohm
    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Wholeness-Implicate-Order-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415289793/"][/ame] [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Wholeness-Implicate-Order-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415289793/"]Amazon.com: Wholeness and the Implicate Order (Routledge...[/ame]


    There is another school of thought where the creation of this universe is NOT sudden monumental random event NOR a Supreme Being's divine plan BUT a co-created universe. And behind that is a spiritual realm that demonstrates to be moving towards an infinite unbounded uncreated state.

    If that is "heaven/nirvana" then "hell" could be defined as a finite bounded condition. Hell could also be defined as being apparently stuck in an unwanted condition with no solution to raise and/or change said condition.

    One of my favorite scientific "unexplainable" phenomena is the Aharonov-Bohm effect:

    The Aharonov–Bohm effect, sometimes called the Ehrenberg–Siday–Aharonov–Bohm effect, is a quantum mechanical phenomenon by which an electrically charged particle is affected by the electromagnetic potential A in regions in which both the magnetic field B and electric field E are zero.

    So basically a particle is effected by a electro-magnetic field that is not measurable. Conventional wisdom would say that this is not possible.

    Another one is Quantum Entanglement:

    Quantum entanglement, also called the quantum non-local connection, is a property of a quantum mechanical state of a system of two or more objects in which the quantum states of the constituting objects are linked together so that one object can no longer be adequately described without full mention of its counterpart—even if the individual objects are spatially separated in a spacelike manner.

    Imho this is mathematics & science demonstrating INTENTION, meaning that a person's considerations can effect things & be actually measured.

    I bring this up simply as a way to say again that the 2 valued logic argument, the absolutist argument, just doesn't hold up. There are other realities yet to be explored.
    Last edited by kr1963; 12-17-2009 at 07:59 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Do Science & Spirituality ever meet?

    kr,
    As a a guy who hears about a small part of this stuff every week in my job, I don't really understand the leap that you take from quantum physics to human intentionality. But I must agree that that reality, in the larger sense, is largely unexplored, and probably will be in our lifetimes. Many parts of the universe are theoretically possible, maybe even probable, but are practically undetectable with current scientific techniques (dark matter, dark energy, etc.)
    As to your larger question:
    In some ways, I consider science and spirituality to be complimentary. I don't take science as proof of the falsehood of spirituality (or religion), and I don't take spirituality as something threatened by science. Assuming that you are a Scientologist, perhaps you agree. The threat, for example, that some people feel from the theory of evolution, is because of a specific understanding they have about religious texts that demands absolute literal interpretation.
    Peace.

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    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do Science & Spirituality ever meet?

    Well if you read any of those 3 books I suggested it would be explained to you in great detail why I make that jump on an analytical level.

    However when a person has had their own spiritual experiences conclusions are often not very "analytical" but enter into the realm of "intuition" and/or "knowingness".

    Maybe this video reflects some of that:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc

    OR this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh8uZ...eature=related

    In any event there have been experiments done where scientists have attempted to measure the effect of a person's viewpoint upon life and/or experiments. And btw, in eastern thinking, this is a common viewpoint.

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    Default Re: Do Science & Spirituality ever meet?

    Thanks, for the links, but I won't be able to read these texts for some time, as my list is full. On the quantum level, things do behave in seemingly strange ways. I'm not a physicist, but perhaps the first cartoon simplifies the Heisenberg principle a bit, and you may be taking this even a step further. Perhaps you are granting credit to the intention of the observer rather than to the difficulty of predicting positions of electrons, which may behave more like "clouds" of energy than pieces of matter.

    Again, as to the larger picture, I try not to confuse my best approach to life (belief or philosophy) with my rational understanding of life (science.) For most normal people, science is not a religion, it's more a collection of observations and theories based on those observations. Sometimes science just isn't capable of providing the emotional support many people require.
    Philosophy is a critical, systematic approach to solving fundamental questions and relies on reasoned argument. Religion, by definition, is about belief, and belief requires no evidence, but it can have philosophical underpinnings. I have no desire to dismiss any set of practices, philosophical or religious, which improves life for the people who use them, if they aren't at the expense of others who don't.
    Thanks again for the posts.

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    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do Science & Spirituality ever meet?

    You are welcome for the links & posts.

    I would submit that the definition of Religion you are using might be limited and/or outdated. In some faiths, a person's spirituality is a PRACTICE, meaning it is something that they do.

    For example, in Tibet, (where I lived for a short time 20 years ago) when a Buddhist monks passes from this life, there are other monks who follow that monk to his next incarnation, (see the movie LITTLE BUDDHA).

    When they find him, they come to the child's house on his 7th birthday. Tibetan astrologers also have a method of spinning a person's astrological chart "backwards", (not to be confused with "horoscopes") so as to aid in discovering who the child was in his previous incarnation.

    The monks then present the child with 10 objects, (usually), 5 of which, (usually) belonged to the previous incarnated monk. They ask the child, "Do any of these objects look familiar?" If the child chooses correctly, (meaning his previous belonging) he is taken back to the monastery & recognized as the new incarnation of the previous monk.

    It might seem strange to relinquish your 7 year old child to a monastery but it is considered an honor in that culture to have given birth to a monk who is busy meditating for the salvation of mankind.

    It is also just a part of their culture to believe that you have lived before & that you will live again. Tibetan monks can actually DEMONSTRATE their religious practice by finding one of their brothers who has passed & come back, by finding him again. It is what they have been doing in Tibetan Buddhism for at least a 1000 years.

    If the same thing can be done over & over again with the same result, could it qualify as a LAW, as an AXIOM, as a science?

    So what do you think the chances are of a 7 year old child correctly picking out 5 objects out of 10? Or 7 out of 11 or 4 out of 12? (Btw some of things they pick out are Tibetan Prayer wheels, incense holders, walking sticks, bowls etc.)

    There is some thinking out of the box.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107426/plotsummary

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KBhF...eature=related

  7. #7

    Default Re: Do Science & Spirituality ever meet?

    At the risk of cross-hijacking your thread, how does quantum mechanic help answer the question "is there a hell"? If someone dies and experiences suffering after their body is dead, that is hell- regardless of what scientists may discover about the movements of particles. Quantum mechanics may be crazy-wierd science, but how does that make it spiritual? Can quantum mechanics answer questions such as: does God exist? How should people behave morally? What happens when we die?

    (Side note... studying near-death experiences, might that be a way science and spirituality intersect?)

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    Olympic Champ kr1963's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do Science & Spirituality ever meet?

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    At the risk of cross-hijacking your thread, how does quantum mechanic help answer the question "is there a hell"? If someone dies and experiences suffering after their body is dead, that is hell- regardless of what scientists may discover about the movements of particles. Quantum mechanics may be crazy-wierd science, but how does that make it spiritual? Can quantum mechanics answer questions such as: does God exist? How should people behave morally? What happens when we die?

    (Side note... studying near-death experiences, might that be a way science and spirituality intersect?)

    If you had read all the posts, you would realize that that all happened on a progression.

    In summary my point was that there was more then the traditional Christian thought vs Science argument. I was saying there was other viewpoints, something more then a 2 valued logic.

    As those posts progressed we just started looking at other realities & thinking out of the box. It got so far off the topic I started a new thread.

    If someone dies and experiences suffering after their body is dead, that is hell

    Well that is already outside of the traditional christian thinking which most designate as a PLACE. If you want to have that discussion, I think that that is what that other thread was asking, IS there a HELL & if so what is it.

    If you actually picked up one of the books i suggested & studied it you may get your answer about how QM might describe anything spiritual.

    The Tao of Physics would be the best to start with.

    Another thing to look @ is that Buddhist thought does not assign physical CAUSATION to a Deity but in fact makes the person realize that he/she is creating his/her own reality & that we all co-create this reality.

    QM has found that one's experience in this universe is dependent on one's viewpoint, according to more then a few of particle physicists.

    I would agree with you on studying near-death experiences.

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    Default Re: Do Science & Spirituality ever meet?

    I don't disagree that spirituality is a practice. nor did I mean to infer that. My view of religion isn't so much older as more conventional.

    "If the same thing can be done over & over again with the same result, could it qualify as a LAW, as an AXIOM, as a science?"

    No. Here is where we fundamentally disagree. It's not that such religious practices don't require the same rigor or dedication as science, or even more. It's that the results are seldom quantifiable, and usually the experience is personal, or in the context of a personal experience, even when shared with others. Many religions, (but perhaps not yours) begin with a meta-narrative, a grand story to explain the origin and purpose of our lives. Science is not really a narrative, but a collection of theories based on observations. Those theories evolve all the time based on new observations. Many of things we once thought were fact, are later thought to be totally wrong. Don't get your hopes up that science can save us or anyone. It's not about saving. It's about observing.

    You are not thinking just out of the box. You are taking a leap of faith, not that there is anything wrong with that. I am NOT judging that leap as inferior to science, just different. I respect those differences, but I don't share them. I have my own leap of faith that I keep separate from science.

    As for Hell, I don't concern myself with it. If it exists and I deserve that existence, so be it. If it doesn't, it doesn't matter. I've always felt that the preoccupation with an afterlife undermines my proper living of this life. What I especially don't want to do is to screw up this world in an effort to gain another (jihadists, fundamentalists, polluters, etc.)

    kr, I won't be going on with this discussion for lack of time. I usually don't respond to most of these topics on forums like this because it's like spitting into the ocean. But it has been refreshing to speak with you.
    See you back at the wrestling forum(s) which you keep up so well.

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