In all of my years on this and other message boards I rarely post links. I wouldn't expect them to be read. If I do post a link it will be only after already summarizing info or thoughts about those parts (to be found in the link) that are directly appopriate to a specific discussion.
I don't mean to be disrespectful and I'm sure your cited references have really wowed you, but it's virtually certain that I won't read any of them.
What I can repond to are you own thoughts about having choices restricted. That earned you a "bravo" from me.
A year or two back, during a discussion about evolution one of the resident posters (I think he is still active) told me that either man evolved from a "premordial soup" or was created. Those were my (and mankind's) only two choices. He was quite insistent and pretty haughty/arrogant when I objected to those as being the only possible choices. He demanded to know what else was possible and my response was that we didn't know because we haven't conceived of it yet. My logic which he didn't like, was pretty simple. I didn't buy creationism. So if he was correct about man not evolving from "the soup", I conclude that there MUST by a third option we haven't imagined yet.
He purports to be a scientist, yet I believe I have the history of science on my side. In the past, proclamations that the cause of something MUST be limited in choice to one of two possible reasons, have been rendered untrue when a third unsuspected reason was uncovered. I have speculated about self-organizing principles of our universe that are not understood (gravity would be one that we know something about, if not enough). Do we have any idea at all about self-organizing forces in effect on the micro level?
As far as the discussion on sprituality meeting science. To me it's pretty simple. It will be encumbent upon science to be able to understand and describe spirituality. Since I believe spirituality to be directly dependent upon each individual's mind, then science must continue it's attempt to understand the mind of all homo sapiens.
We have surprises ahead, even if most of us won't be around to see them.
Last edited by LkwdSteve; 12-26-2009 at 04:36 PM.
DSCH: a Soviet artist's reply to unjust criticism.
Heisenberg went for a drive and got stopped by a traffic cop. The cop asked, "Do you know how fast you were going?" Heisenberg replied, "No, but I know where I am."
Now that's funny...
The Art History equivalent would be:
How many Surrealists does it take to screw in a light bulb? A Duck!
The Tao of Physics, by University of Vienna Physics professor Fritoj Capra
This is my take on this book, (which I read while living in Kathmandu, Nepal in the summer 1986; Nepal was the birthplace of Gautama Siddhartha, the Hindu prince who became the Buddha, the enlightened one)) was that Capra was noticing that what he studied in the Vedic Hymns & other Buddhist scripture was very similar to what he was actually studying & teaching in his classrooms in Vienna, (which was I was living before I moved to Asia).
He felt he was looking at the SAME reality through different eyes; reading the same book but in two different languages.
That reality described by QM is that the SOLID reality we experience is NOT really solid but a web of fluctuations of energy. He read Buddhist texts that were describing the same phenomena BUT 2500 years before scientists discovered that realm.
He goes a lot further then this simplification into the details & math of why he thought the way he did. I agreed with just about everything he said both analytically & intuitively.
The Hypothesis of Formative Causation by Biochemist Rupert Sheldrake
THIS DESCRIBES SOME THE IDEAS CONTAINED IN THIS BOOK.THE STORY OF "The Hundredth Monkey" has recently become popular in our culture as a strategy for social change. Lyall Watson first told it in Lifetide (pp147- 148), but its most widely known version is the opening to the book The Hundredth Monkey, by Ken Keyes.
The story is based on research with monkeys on a northern Japanese Island, and its central idea is that when enough individuals in a population adopt a new idea or behavior, there occurs an ideological breakthrough that allows this new awareness to be communicated directly from mind to mind without the connection of external experience and then all individuals in the population spontaneously adopt it. "It may be that when enough of us hold something to be true, it becomes true for everyone." (Watson, p148)
I found this to be a very appealing and believable idea. The concept of Jung's collective unconscious, and the biologists' morphogenetic fields offer parallel stories that help strengthen this strand of our imaginations. Archetypes, patterns, or fields that are themselves without mass or energy, could shape the individual manifestations of mass and energy. The more widespread these fields are, the greater their influence on the physical level of reality.
We sometimes mention the Hundredth Monkey Phenomenon when we need supporting evidence of the possibility of an optimistic scenario for the future, especially a future based on peace instead of war. If enough of us will just think the right thoughts, then suddenly, almost magically, such ideas will become reality.
It basically describes a biological model that does not depend solely upon the physical to transfer information from one generation to another.
Wholeness & Implicate Order by the late Penn State Professor of Physics David Bohm
My father was a professor @ PSU so I had an opportunity to be exposed to his research when I was younger. He discovered the Aharonov Bohm effect which says that particles can effected by electro-magnetic fields even when the field CANNOT be measured.
His book goes over how the physical universe is a holographic projection that is dependent upon the viewpoint of the observer. This begs to ask then, WHO IS DOING THE OBSERVING? Am I a soul or am I the sum of my genetic code & synapses?
It is this light, that also combines my countless personal spiritual experiences, aesethic sensibilities & keen analysis to go along with the data in these 3 books, that I say that UNEQUIVOCALLY Science & Spirituality DO meet & in fact have already met and shaken hands....long ago.
Last edited by kr1963; 01-11-2010 at 04:21 PM.
"Reading can be so...cumbersome."
Very much so. And time consuming. Especially if it is truly thought-provoking.
"THAT would be life in a box imo."
Not sure what you mean.
"Meaning BIOLOGICAL micro level?"
NO, not exactly. Meaning that biological processes would, or could, be a product of forces and energies at work on all matter at at level that we can neither see or understand. Self-organization isn't restricted to the biological.
"Unless you are reincarnated as a SPECTATOR"
Funny, that's sort of what I feel I am now. Not sure what reincarnations will be available in the distant future.
DSCH: a Soviet artist's reply to unjust criticism.
KR1963-"Reading can be so...cumbersome."
LkwdSteve-Very much so. And time consuming. Especially if it is truly thought-provoking.
KR1963-Now there's a HUGE problem in our culture currently... THINKING takes too much time....
KR1963-"THAT would be life in a box imo."
LkwdSteve-Not sure what you mean.
KR1963-I mean that if life was restricted to a TWO-Valued logic thought process, (as per your example) that would be very limiting, like living in a box.
KR1963-"Meaning BIOLOGICAL micro level?"
LkwdSteve-NO, not exactly. Meaning that biological processes would, or could, be a product of forces and energies at work on all matter at at level that we can neither see or understand. Self-organization isn't restricted to the biological.
KR1963-THAT is the premise of Sheldrake's work.
KR1963-"Unless you are reincarnated as a SPECTATOR"
LkwdSteve-Funny, that's sort of what I feel I am now. Not sure what reincarnations will be available in the distant future.
KR1963-Um, how about PARTICIPANT? Life is a game. You can be a Player or a Piece or even a broken piece. You can also be a spectator, (actually a falsehood as that itself is a choice as well) AND you can be a MAKER & UNMAKER of games.
And that is the one thing that SOME (western) religions & Science have in common: THEY THINK SOMEONE ELSE ALREADY CREATED THIS GAME. They just argue over CAUSE.
In SOME (eastern) religions, they realize the truth that the game is still being created by those responsible for it's genesis: You, me, US. WE made the GAME & are still making the GAME hence we can UNmake it if we so choose.
The point of the texts I have suggested are a handful of Scientists who are seeing that the eastern model might correct & have found evidence of that model demonstrated thru studying mathematics, the Quantum world & Life itself.