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Thread: Gay marriage? Not in Maine.

  1. #46
    Olympic Champ RYou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay marriage? Not in Maine.

    Quote Originally Posted by coachsparky View Post
    A person has to be nearly brain dead not to recognize that denying another human being the right to marry the person of their choosing just because that person happens to be the same sex as them is denying them a right that the majority of Americans enjoy and thus making them unequal. It is clearly and undeniably against the constitution of the United States but then conservatives never said they supported the constitiution at all, did they?
    Sparky, the New Jersey legislature is 90% democrat. There is a lame duck Democratic Governor. Here in NJ the population does not get to vote on such matters. Frankly, we do not get to vote on very much except those that sit on the fat asses in Trenton. Gay marriage was raised as a lame duck bill to be brought to a vote any time over the past 6 weeks. The lame duck democrats opted not to bring it to a floor vote. My point ? This is not a conservative issue. It is not just conservatives blocking the rule.

    Besides, here in NJ gay have the option of a civil union that is recognized and offers all of the benefits of marriage gays are screaming for. If they can find a church that can "wed" them, there is nothing to bar that direction.
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  2. #47

    Default Re: Gay marriage? Not in Maine.

    Quote Originally Posted by kr1963 View Post
    If a gay couple wants to get married, why not just go to thai land & get a sex change op? In every gay couple there is always a BOTTOM & a TOP, (male/female). Why not just MAKE IT OFFICIAL. That would end the argument. ;-P
    You don't know many gays, do you.

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  3. #48
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay marriage? Not in Maine.

    Quote Originally Posted by coachsparky View Post
    A person has to be nearly brain dead not to recognize that denying another human being the right to marry the person of their choosing just because that person happens to be the same sex as them is denying them a right that the majority of Americans enjoy and thus making them unequal. It is clearly and undeniably against the constitution of the United States but then conservatives never said they supported the constitiution at all, did they?
    Hey, Coach. Glad to see you again. We can always use another voice of reason.
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  4. #49
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay marriage? Not in Maine.

    Quote Originally Posted by coachsparky View Post
    A person has to be nearly brain dead not to recognize that denying another human being the right to marry the person of their choosing just because that person happens to be the same sex as them is denying them a right that the majority of Americans enjoy and thus making them unequal. It is clearly and undeniably against the constitution of the United States but then conservatives never said they supported the constitiution at all, did they?
    I personally believe that Conservatives support the constitution much more than liberals do.

    I have to agree with Zapp, until marriage is defined as something other than between a man and a women then there is no discrimination. Zapp has offered very good legal reasoning which might not satisfy your beliefs but does satisfy the legal aspect of it.

    It is not discriminatory because nobody is allowed to marry the same sex, it is not a gender issue, it is a preference issue. Everyone has the right to marry someone of the opposite sex. So it is equal treatment of both men and women.

  5. #50
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    Default Re: Gay marriage? Not in Maine.

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY View Post
    It is not discriminatory because nobody is allowed to marry the same sex, it is not a gender issue, it is a preference issue. Everyone has the right to marry someone of the opposite sex. So it is equal treatment of both men and women.
    I strongly disagree that it's a preference issue, although I know that this is still debatable. Would you concede that if it were established that homosexuality is genetic rather that a choice, that prohibition of same sex marriage (and condemnation by the church) is inappropriate?
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  6. #51
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay marriage? Not in Maine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    I strongly disagree that it's a preference issue, although I know that this is still debatable. Would you concede that if it were established that homosexuality is genetic rather that a choice, that prohibition of same sex marriage (and condemnation by the church) is inappropriate?

    I would concede that point. If they could determine beyond a doubt that homosexuality was a genetic trait then I would assume it would be discriminatory on some level, I dont believe it would be gender discrimination.

    When it comes to the church that is a harder issue. I believe the church would have to stand by what the Bible says about Homosexuality, right or wrong. Just as we know that certain personalities are genetically geared towards violence and we still punish these people when they commit acts that they might not be able to stop. Perhaps that is not the best analogy but I believe it stands to reason.

  7. #52

    Default Re: Gay marriage? Not in Maine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    I strongly disagree that it's a preference issue, although I know that this is still debatable. Would you concede that if it were established that homosexuality is genetic rather that a choice, that prohibition of same sex marriage (and condemnation by the church) is inappropriate?
    I think that the state should permit homosexual marriage (or civil unions with equal benefits) and the church should be governed by scripture, as Ugly says. This is regardless of the causes of homosexuality. I believe that church people who treat homosexual people poorly should stop immediately, as being a jerk is a bigger and more damaging sin than being gay.

    As to the causes of homosexuality, I feel fairly confident suggesting that it is a combination of genetic and environmental factors (nature + nurture), along with the choice to act upon one's sexual desires. Seems like most complex things in people, including heterosexual attraction to one's partner(s), is a combination of both- why not homosexuality?

    Ugly, instead of your (admittedly imperfect) analogy, I would say the following: the church traditionally comdemns heterosexual promiscuity, even though people seem to be genetically programmed to have sex with more than just their spouse. I would further say that straight people who have sex with someone other than their spouse should not be comdemning homosexuals on biblical grounds.

  8. #53
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    Default Re: Gay marriage? Not in Maine.

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    I think that the state should permit homosexual marriage (or civil unions with equal benefits) and the church should be governed by scripture, as Ugly says. This is regardless of the causes of homosexuality.
    Civil unions with equal benefits aren't the same as marriage, and if I were gay, I wouldn't be satisfied with that. I agree that the church can do whatever it wants. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of their position if/when homosexuality is shown not to be a choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    As to the causes of homosexuality, I feel fairly confident suggesting that it is a combination of genetic and environmental factors (nature + nurture), along with the choice to act upon one's sexual desires. Seems like most complex things in people, including heterosexual attraction to one's partner(s), is a combination of both- why not homosexuality?
    It might be a combination of causes, but I think genetics is the overwhelming factor. Some people may choose to try one behavior or another, but I believe that gays are born, not made.

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    I would say the following: the church traditionally comdemns heterosexual promiscuity, even though people seem to be genetically programmed to have sex with more than just their spouse. I would further say that straight people who have sex with someone other than their spouse should not be comdemning homosexuals on biblical grounds.
    Good points. Again, I don't really care what the church allows - what's more unnatural than a vow of chastity? I just don't like when civil laws are based on religious laws. Admittedly, some Biblical teachings are very valuable and deserve to be adopted by society, but not because the Bible says so.
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  9. #54

    Default Re: Gay marriage? Not in Maine.

    [I just don't like when civil laws are based on religious laws. Admittedly, some Biblical teachings are very valuable and deserve to be adopted by society, but not because the Bible says so.[/quote]

    I agree Spider, which I why I said that I think the state should allow gay marriage. I'm not quite sure of the differences between civil unions and marriage.

    I think I'm going to bow out of this discussion now, got work to do... take care guys!

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