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Thread: Health Care a Right?

  1. #10
    Ancient Arachnid Spider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Care a Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black-n-Red View Post
    Spider, I don't begrudge doctors and dentists, et al for their fees. The insurance companies are a whole nother issue, though. My wife works in insurance so she has seen first hand what her industry is all about.

    Here's an article that I posted previously that gets to the crux of the issue:
    http://www.expressmilwaukee.com/arti...#sCommentN3237
    I agree with the article and with you, and I do believe that if medical benefits were administered on a non-profit basis, the savings would be enormous. There still would be some controls over the professions, but if they were fairly implemented (realistic authorization of treatment proposals, reasonable fees, strict policing of abuses), the system might work.
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  2. #11

    Default Re: Health Care a Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider View Post
    I agree with the article and with you, and I do believe that if medical benefits were administered on a non-profit basis, the savings would be enormous. There still would be some controls over the professions, but if they were fairly implemented (realistic authorization of treatment proposals, reasonable fees, strict policing of abuses), the system might work.
    Spider,

    Do you believe the quality of care would decline if "medical benefits were administered on a non-profit basis"?

  3. #12
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    Default Re: Health Care a Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyFan View Post
    Spider,

    Do you believe the quality of care would decline if "medical benefits were administered on a non-profit basis"?
    No. I do believe, however, that the quality of care would decline if allowable fees were drastically reduced, if auxiliaries were allowed to perform procedures that require the expertise of a doctor, or if authorization were denied or delayed for many necessary tests and procedures. It is a difficult balance between cost control and quality care.
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  4. #13

    Default Re: Health Care a Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    An essay that opens with a strawman argument should be a red flag to any discerning reader. The rhetorical phrase "The advocates of socialized medicine" reminds me of the rhetorical phrase "the open borders crowd". Have any of our Congressional leaders, or even the man on the street, called for "socialized medicine" or "open borders". No.

    Of course if you're a "true believer" then it doesn't matter. The writer is telling you something you already believe.

    The question, properly framed, would be "Should health care be a right", not "Is health care a right". Obviously it is not currently a right for all people.
    I don't think the author opened with a strawman argument. There are many on the left that have proclaimed "Healthcare is a right". Obama has craftilly said "Healthcare should be a right".

    I tend to believe health care is not a right, but I don't think public education should be a right either. Maybe it's semantics, but I just don't think every human being in this country is entitled to a free education and/or free health care. Admittedly I am in the minority on this issue as children in this country definitively have a right to primary education through grade 12.

    I do believe every human being should have access to some minimal standard of health care. The real issue is about cost and allocation of resources. At what cost does the government provide health care to its people? The issue inevitably becomes a case of limited resources and unlimited demand for health care. How the costs and resources get allocated are the real issues to me.

  5. #14
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Care a Right?

    What about the ability to be seen by a doctor, which is a common problem in Canada and England, could we see that problem arise here. Would people be more likely to visit the Doctor for minor ailments that they would now just take care of at home. Also are the doctors still held liable for malpractice suites and the like?

  6. #15
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    Default Re: Health Care a Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyFan View Post
    I don't think the author opened with a strawman argument.
    As I thought I pointed out, the strawman is "the advocates of socialized medicine". Maybe I should be talking to a brick wall.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyFan

    The real issue is about cost and allocation of resources. At what cost does the government provide health care to its people? The issue inevitably becomes a case of limited resources and unlimited demand for health care.
    That's already an issue, and has been an issue under the current health care scheme.

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY
    What about the ability to be seen by a doctor, which is a common problem in Canada and England, could we see that problem arise here.
    It's already a problem here. Approx. 15%, or 40 million people (disproportionately children) don't have health insurance and can't see a doctor (unless they go to emergency and most won't).

    Quote Originally Posted by UGLY
    Would people be more likely to visit the Doctor for minor ailments that they would now just take care of at home.
    Doctor visits are not the major cost drivers in health care.

  7. #16
    Super Moderator UGLY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Care a Right?

    If everyone started visiting the Dr. could that not become a serious cost driver? Also what age are those children if that is 18-35 I am not concerned about them. The majority of people needing medical attention fall in the 12 and under and over 65 from what I understand. I have also heard that 5% of people are 80% of the cost, I believe I heard that on CNN two nights ago.

  8. #17

    Default Re: Health Care a Right?

    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD>Originally Posted by ArmyFan
    I don't think the author opened with a strawman argument.
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    As I thought I pointed out, the strawman is "the advocates of socialized medicine". Maybe I should be talking to a brick wall.

    "The advocates of socialized medicine" is not a strawman either. C'mon, Clone, you're usually better at nitpicking than this!

    According to Wiki, "A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position." The author is not misrepresenting anyone's position. There are numerous people on the left who are "proponents of socialized medicine". They often don't use the term "socialized medicine" but what they favor is undoubtedly socialized medicine.

    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD>Originally Posted by ArmyFan

    The real issue is about cost and allocation of resources. At what cost does the government provide health care to its people? The issue inevitably becomes a case of limited resources and unlimited demand for health care.
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    That's already an issue, and has been an issue under the current health care scheme.

    It will inevitably become a larger issue as the government will need to ration it's limited resources. Although it is not perfect under the current system, it is far superior to anything the government may propose, in my opinion.

  9. #18
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    Default Re: Health Care a Right?

    I see you found a definition of strawman, but you haven't applied to the statement in the essay. Of course, you can always refuse to recognize the strawman.

    Ah, the govt hasn't proposed anything but you know it will be far inferior to the present system. I get it.

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