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Thread: Affirmative Action -still needed or outdated

  1. #10
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    Default Re: Affirmative Action -still needed or outdated

    A few remarks:

    Flogging Sully is the only one to ask about the practice of Affirm Action. I think most people probably misunderstand how it works--equating it w/the promotion of an unqualified person, when it is not. R.payton gives us a report about an event in Little Rock--which, as far as I can see, has nothing whatsoever to do with the practice of Affirmative Action. But one could easily take from his anecdote about this school that black people are somehow inferior--let's say unambitious--playing on racial stereotypes that still exist. Ban B. knows more about AA than I do. Unfortunately he no longer seems to be posting.

    Has someone here been mistreated somehow by Affirm Action? I always wonder about a white person's motive in raising this issue. If you've never been denied an opportunity that you know of, and especially if you have a good job now, you're concerned about Affirm Action because..? Because you, as a white person don't want to be offended by talk about our racial history? Because you hold some sort of paternal attitude toward "those" people, and feel AA is holding them back somehow? I think it's telling that the one major case about this issue before the U.S. Supreme Ct, involved a white woman who couldn't get into the U of Mich law school (a very elite school). I'm sure she suffered tremendously because she had to (and presumably could) go to law school at a "lesser" school.

    Nothwithstanding all our efforts and ambitions, we are made up as persons in part by our fathers and their fathers before them. This includes, among other things, our attitudes toward education. I believe it's axiomatic that a person who comes from a less educated family is less likely to envison the top, much less succeed in climbing the educational ladder. Conversely, if you come from a well educated family, it is very likely that you will be expected as a young person to climb the education ladder. Salient fact: in my lifetime, black people were discouraged and sometimes even barred from an education. I'm still benefitting from the fact that my daddy was white. He graduated from high school. Black men of his generation averaged a 6th grade education per a book I read on MLK Jr. (also being of that generation).

    Yes, socioeconomic status is a factor in achievement. But I don't think it is easily separated from race--unless we ignore history and its effect on us today.

    It's fine to think and talk about a colorblind society. But we're not anywhere near that. And in any case, I always hear this from white people--they who tend to reserve the right (as they've traditionally done) to judge matters of race.
    Last edited by matclone; 06-16-2009 at 11:18 AM.

  2. #11

    Default Re: Affirmative Action -still needed or outdated

    The only places I 've heard that use any Affirmative Action policies are

    1) admission into post-secondary schooling i.e law schools, graduate schools

    2) employment in urban areas in civil service jobs i.e. firemen, policemen

    3) urban areas in which construction contracts for municipal jobs which require that a certain percentage (seems like 10% is the number) of the contracts must to go to minority-owned firms.

    In my opinion, such a minute portion of the business world is even remotely associated with Affirmative Action that to say it should be done away with is premature, at best.
    Your ignorance is painful to witness.....

  3. #12

    Default Re: Affirmative Action -still needed or outdated

    In my business there are companies/contactors that are run by white men but they put their wife on as the president so they can get preferential treatment. There are always going to be ways that white men will be taken care of in this society.

    I agree with clone in that this subject is always broached by white men like Chance. I suspect that he has never been held back from achieving whatever he sets his mind out to do. To me, it's a form of race baiting and justification of a conscious or subconscious distaste for non-white folks in out society. I wonder how many times he has thought to himself "that fricking n####r"?

    Look in the mirror my friend and admit that you have done that oftentimes in your life.

    Funny how the so-called liberal media is all over Letterman. Try to find a mainstream article regarding that POS in South Carolina. You won't locate it so don't waste too much time looking.

  4. #13

    Default Re: Affirmative Action -still needed or outdated

    Quote Originally Posted by washed up wrestler View Post
    In my business there are companies/contactors that are run by white men but they put their wife on as the president so they can get preferential treatment. There are always going to be ways that white men will be taken care of in this society.

    I agree with clone in that this subject is always broached by white men like Chance. I suspect that he has never been held back from achieving whatever he sets his mind out to do. To me, it's a form of race baiting and justification of a conscious or subconscious distaste for non-white folks in out society. I wonder how many times he has thought to himself "that fricking n####r"?

    1. You assume I am white when you don't even know me....I am not 100% white and have relatives who were discriminated against based on race.

    2. I find it pathetic that you think that a discussion on affirmative action is a form or race baiting. If we can't have an honest and open dialog on something then how are we(the US) supposed to improve.

    3. The fact that you have wonder if I said that shows you don't know shit about me and that you are just looking to be an asshole and further divide the nation on race.

    Look in the mirror my friend and admit that you have done that oftentimes in your life.

    This is coming from a guy that once said I should shoot myself. I have never thought or said something like that and take offense to the fact that you are saying I have.

    Funny how the so-called liberal media is all over Letterman. Try to find a mainstream article regarding that POS in South Carolina. You won't locate it so don't waste too much time looking.
    Pathetic man very very pathetic. You had a great post earlier but I should have known that you wouldn't be able to make that a trend.

  5. #14

    Default Re: Affirmative Action -still needed or outdated

    You are now cemented as a troll first class. Here's another one for you troll.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/...ail/index.html

  6. #15

    Default Re: Affirmative Action -still needed or outdated

    Matclone, while the posters in thewrestlingtalk.com might not have been negatively affected by Affirmative action, someone is getting affected.

    I don't have any examples from my own life (AA isn't much of an issue where I live in Canada) but my sister, who lives in South Africa, has lots of stories. For example, the medical school she attends has a certain "quota" of black students it requires. That means that black applicants generally need lower marks to get in than white applicants. I could see how a white applicant, who has great marks but does not get accepted while a person with lower marks is, could be upset.

    That doesn't mean I'm necessarily against Affirmative Action. I believe that in South Africa, which has a very recent history of Apardheid, it is defnitely needed. But I do understand why some people- even good, honest, fair minded people- aren't too fond of the idea.

    Oh, and this might not be strictly relevant, but nowhere does AA seem to be more of a hot topic in South Africa than their national sports teams. The national wrestling team is picked using a "Russian Style" system were several high-level tournaments are held and the coaches then pick the consistently "best" athlete. I had two training partners down there competing for a national spot, one white guy and one black guy (from the DRC, not native South African). The white athlete alleged that the black athlete was being favored for the national team because of his race, while the black athlete alleged that the white athlete was being favored because of his coach's connections.... they finally decided to resolve the dilemma by focussing on different disciplines (freestyle and greco-roman).

    The whole thing made me glad that Canada (like the US) has a single qualifying tournament. Much less politics involved.

    Oh and by the way WUW, Chance hasn't said anything inappropriate in this thead. Diagreeing with him is fine but to attack him and put racist words in his mouth is a pile of crap.
    Last edited by arm-spin; 06-16-2009 at 05:44 PM.

  7. #16

    Default Re: Affirmative Action -still needed or outdated

    Quote Originally Posted by washed up wrestler View Post
    You are now cemented as a troll first class. Here's another one for you troll.

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/...ail/index.html
    Who is the troll? who has been trying to derail the conversation......There is a reason you have been kicked off of this forum a few times.

  8. #17
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    Default Re: Affirmative Action -still needed or outdated

    arm-spin, affirmative action, as practiced in the United States. is not a quota system. Yes, the idea that one would be excluded from from something or given preference for something based on their race (an immutable characteristic) is abhorrent to most people. Yet, that's exactly what has occurred in the United States and South Africa until very recently (which you acknowledge). Affirmative action is an attempt to right the wrong. When these sorts of contestable issues arise--a battle of ideas--one thing I like to take into consideration is: who holds the power? Because those in power typically have great resources with which they can influence the debate.

  9. #18

    Default Re: Affirmative Action -still needed or outdated

    This is a very complex issue. The concept of affirmative action is both necessary and positive for society. However, the application of affirmative action is often abusive and discriminatory.

    Despite what matclone says, there are undoubtedly quota actions in the US. I've been a part of organizations hiring a new class of "associates" and we were given explicit numbers of the racial and gender makeup of the class (ie. at least X# African Americans, at least Y# women, etc). Given a large enough applicant pool, these quotas were often not difficult to meet. However, at times, the applicant pool is not large enough to find qualified individuals in each desired group, so a hard quota practice led to other, less obvious forms of discrimination.

    At the same time, I've been involved in mass layoffs and there were quotas with respect to the layoffs (ie. no more than X women, no more than Y African Americans, no more than Z over 40 years of age).

    In each of these cases, the hard quotas were definitely discriminatory and abusive, in my opinion.

    Despite the examples of discrimination above, I still believe in affirmative action. I am involved in recruiting for West Point and we devote an inordinate % of recruiting/admissions resources toward minorities. And we should. It's a goal of the Army to have an officer corps representative of the Army as a whole, so as an organization, West Point has goals (not hard quotas) for various racial/ethnic/gender groups. Furthermore, I simply believe a young man/woman from a disadvantaged background, having experienced some breadth of life's struggles, can leverage that experience as a leader in the Army. At West Point, we look more at the whole character of the individual than simply his/her academic resume.

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