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Thread: Common Baby, Light My Fire!

  1. #10

    Default Re: Common Baby, Light My Fire!

    Snackem - It is always a source of great hilarity when a staff sprays another staff inadvertently. At least, for everybody but the victim. Where we usually see that is when we have large-scale disturbances (I've seen fights involving anywhere from 30 to 110 subjects) and everyone is running around with no coordination or guidance. Spray is everywhere, and inevitably someone starts to spray and another staff runs in between. This may come as a shock, but it is almost always the younger and more inexperienced staff involved. For guys like me, I am not running into the middle of a m

    R.I.P. Cyrano and Roxanne.

  2. #11

    Default Re: Common Baby, Light My Fire!

    When I was sprayed it was by an inexperienced co worker as well, we were working security at a party when somoene who had been asked to leave pulled out a knife. I was standing behind the person when the other security guard pulled out the spray. No matter how fast I tried to move I couldn't get out of the way in time. The guy dropped the knife and when he went to pick it up I tackeled him. It is not fun to be sprayed, I can tell you that much. Though I'm not sure if I'd rather get sprayed or hit with a bag of urine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flop The Nuts View Post
    [D]on't let lack of knowledge impact your ability to post as if you are knowledgeable.

  3. #12

    Default Re: Common Baby, Light My Fire!

    Russ - we have had a real rash of "gassings" lately. The latest variation is to flood the hallway with a mix of water (usually from the toilet) and shampoo. That makes the floor a skating rink. Then they take a milk carton, chip bag, or similar container and fill it with urine/feces/spit/ejaculate/whatever and wedge the mouth of the container between the door and the jam. When the victim walks past (slowly, because of the slippery floor), smash the container, causing the contents to jet into the hallway. Yesterday the lockdown unit (oh, excuse me, the Behavior Treatment Program) got two staff and a prisoner in two separate incidents.
    You might wonder what the consequences of this behavior might be. Back in the day, someone would unlock the cell door, step in, and modify the individual's attitude. Today, in the gentler, kinder Department of Corrections, we write a report. (Remember, I work with youth, not adult offenders. These are young men ages 15 through 24.) If they are not parole violators, if I do a really good job writing the report, and if, after an extensive investigation, the review board determines that I have in fact crossed every t and dotted every i, and that there can be absolutely no way to avoid punishing the young man, he will lose 30 days of "good time". That, of course, assumes he HAS 30 days of good time accumulated. If he is a parole violator his time of release has been established and we can't touch that. Period. Now remember, this is a lock-down unit (whoops, there I go again, using that forbidden term, a BTP unit). The prisoner can get in a fight during breakfast and gas me 30 minutes later. He still gets his 180 minutes out of his room for program time. Most of the time, because of time restraints on THE STAFF he will even program with his group, not solo. There aren't enough 180 minute slots of time available in the day to program the necessary groups and to do solo programs also.
    We are doing these young men a great disservice. We are teaching them that there are no significant consequences to behavior. When they get back on the street, they are going to think that they can do anything they want, demand that their desires be gratified instantly, and expect that there will be no negative reaction. The people making the policy decisions are not on the line. They are social workers and psychologists. And, of course, they live in really nice neighborhoods with tall fences and guarded gates.

    R.I.P. Cyrano and Roxanne.

  4. #13

    Default Re: Common Baby, Light My Fire!

    Spider - I don't know why, but spit really bothers me. Luckily, the two times I have had to deal with this, I had really good staff back up that was able to keep me out of serious trouble.

    R.I.P. Cyrano and Roxanne.

  5. #14

    Default Re: Common Baby, Light My Fire!

    M, I do not, nor ever have, worked in your field. But from what I've heard from others and read from you, I feel for you. I agree that the system is not teaching these kids any responsibility for their actions. I personally feel that the entire prison system is a mess. I think that if a person is scheduled to get out one day then the system should do their best to rehabilitate them so they can be a productive citizen when they get out. In my opinion that means teaching them a work skill and working the heck out of them while they're still in prison. Forget basketball and lifting weights. If you teach them to weld, then put them on a job welding for 12hrs a day. But, once they do their time, I think they should be able to apply for a job without the stigma of "felon" for the rest of their lives. If they can't get a job when they get out, they will just go back to crime and ultimately prison. We all hear so much about building a fence at our Mexican border. Why not have prisoners do it? They can be taught heavy equiptment operation and construction skills. It would cut the potential cost in half (at least) too.

    Now for a question. I have a beautiful 24yr old daughter. She is about 5'2" and 110lbs soaking wet. My entire family are gun owners and we all (including her) are members of the local sportsman club. She does not have and does not want a concealed carry license, however. So, I was wondering how to get Mace. Not pepper spray, I'm talking the real deal heavy duty stuff. I've heard that you need a license for it, but I don't know if that's true. I want her to have something that really works. We've thought of a stun gun, but you almost have to be hugging someone in order to make that work and she's too small not to be over powered. From what I've seen on tv, the Mace can be sprayed from a bit of a distance. Any idea how I can get a hold of some?

  6. #15
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    Default Re: Common Baby, Light My Fire!

    Hey Quinn14, your question regarding Mace or Pepper Spay got me thinking also where to get legel items, so I Googled and found a few sites.

    Pepper Spray & Mace

    Search pepper spray - Grainger Industrial Supply

    The Home Security Superstore - Mace Pepper Spray Mace Pepper Gel Mace Pepper Foam


    Didn't read any of fine print....but they seem to be easy enough to purchase.

  7. #16
    Olympic Champ r.payton@att.net's Avatar
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    Default Re: Common Baby, Light My Fire!

    Quote Originally Posted by M Richardson View Post
    Russ - we have had a real rash of "gassings" lately. The latest variation is to flood the hallway with a mix of water (usually from the toilet) and shampoo. That makes the floor a skating rink. Then they take a milk carton, chip bag, or similar container and fill it with urine/feces/spit/ejaculate/whatever and wedge the mouth of the container between the door and the jam. When the victim walks past (slowly, because of the slippery floor), smash the container, causing the contents to jet into the hallway. Yesterday the lockdown unit (oh, excuse me, the Behavior Treatment Program) got two staff and a prisoner in two separate incidents.
    You might wonder what the consequences of this behavior might be. Back in the day, someone would unlock the cell door, step in, and modify the individual's attitude. Today, in the gentler, kinder Department of Corrections, we write a report. (Remember, I work with youth, not adult offenders. These are young men ages 15 through 24.) If they are not parole violators, if I do a really good job writing the report, and if, after an extensive investigation, the review board determines that I have in fact crossed every t and dotted every i, and that there can be absolutely no way to avoid punishing the young man, he will lose 30 days of "good time". That, of course, assumes he HAS 30 days of good time accumulated. If he is a parole violator his time of release has been established and we can't touch that. Period. Now remember, this is a lock-down unit (whoops, there I go again, using that forbidden term, a BTP unit). The prisoner can get in a fight during breakfast and gas me 30 minutes later. He still gets his 180 minutes out of his room for program time. Most of the time, because of time restraints on THE STAFF he will even program with his group, not solo. There aren't enough 180 minute slots of time available in the day to program the necessary groups and to do solo programs also.
    We are doing these young men a great disservice. We are teaching them that there are no significant consequences to behavior. When they get back on the street, they are going to think that they can do anything they want, demand that their desires be gratified instantly, and expect that there will be no negative reaction. The people making the policy decisions are not on the line. They are social workers and psychologists. And, of course, they live in really nice neighborhoods with tall fences and guarded gates.
    Used to be ( and not that long ago) a guard took a hit or a cup of urine and the inmate was in for an elevator ride.The ''paper trail'' only works if ADMIN has the balls to punish these pricks ;(which they do NOT.)I wish i had some answers yet the best I can do is pray you make it home safely every day .
    You know, I think I would rather be a man than a god . We don't need anyone to believe in us. We just keep going anyhow. It's what we do.

  8. #17

    Default Re: Common Baby, Light My Fire!

    Quote Originally Posted by tpay View Post
    Hey Quinn14, your question regarding Mace or Pepper Spay got me thinking also where to get legel items, so I Googled and found a few sites.

    Pepper Spray & Mace

    Search pepper spray - Grainger Industrial Supply

    The Home Security Superstore - Mace Pepper Spray Mace Pepper Gel Mace Pepper Foam


    Didn't read any of fine print....but they seem to be easy enough to purchase.
    Thanks for the links. That stuff isn't as expensive as I expected. I'm thinking about getting her one of the high powered sprays and the cell phone stun gun. That should protect her enough to at least get out of a situation. I just hope she will carry them.

  9. #18

    Default Re: Common Baby, Light My Fire!

    ALL of the women in my life carry pepper spray. I buy it for them, and periodically inspect and test them. If they have lost them (their friends "steal" them), I replace them. It is that important. I carry it myself. When the neighborhood pit bull decides my dog is a target when walking down the sidewalk, you would be amazed at how discouraging a blast of pepper is - to the dog, and, if necessary, to the owner. (Try to avoid that. For the dog it is no big deal. For the owner, you are likely to have the police become involved.)
    We carry pepper spray. You can actually purchase the same products I am using in the prison and the police are using out on the street. I have two brands that are available commercially that we are using in the institution.
    Fox Pepper Spray - Fox Labs Pepper Spray and Pepper Sprays | Strongest Pepper Spray| Buy Pepper Spray

    I carry two cans at work. The first is a MK-4 of fox labs spray that emits a stream. This is a can about the size of a butane lighter re-fill. The solid stream will reach out to about 10 feet. Within the facility, I am not supposed to use it closer than 3 feet, but situations sometimes lead to closer use. Too bad. In a parking lot, I would suggest not using it closer than 3 inches because the back spray is going to be a problem.
    The second can I carry is from Zark, the Z-505. It looks like a can of shave cream. It emits a fog, rather than a stream, and is supposed to be used to put down multiple fights, particularly in an enclosed area (the dayroom, a hallway, etc.). In reality, it is used when the prisoner you are spraying has, in some way, p!ssed you off. It is really nasty stuff. The chemical pepper in this product has been ground very, very fine so that the suspension holds in the air. It gets into every cranny of your sinuses, every avioli in you lungs, your tear ducts, everywhere. When someone has been hit with "The Z" sometimes you have to remind them that they really can breathe, that they need to keep trying to breathe to clear their lungs. "The Z" often brings on vomiting spells. I love the stuff, but reserve it for "those who deserve the very best". Since it is a fog it is an equal opportunity gagger. Your subject is going to get it, but if there is any breeze (or, in my case, if you have to go in and do hands on) you are going to get your full share too. Because of the potential for "cross contamination" I recommend stream spray rather than foggers.
    Next, there is the trigger mechanism. There are three basic systems used for commercial products. Most of the "keychain" products have a a "button" that has to be slipped sideways about 1/8th turn and then pressed down. The keychains hold enough product to give you two or three sprays of one to two second duration. That is plenty for one assailant - not so good for multiple attackers.
    Another type will have an open button on the top with a cover. Again, think of that can of shaving cream. Flip the cap off and press down on the button. It works great, but without the cap it is very vulnerable to accidental discharge. Don't buy anything that can go off in a lady's purse, or your pocket, without your intent.
    The third trigger is my preference. It is the "flip top". Your thumb (or finger, but the thumb is better technique) slips under a levered cap onto the trigger mechanism. Press down, somebody goes blind. It is really intuitive, provides excellent prevention from accident, and gives a very secure and comfortable feel. My choice for me and mine.
    Now to the real nitty gritty - the use of spray. Just like a hand gun, it doesn't do any good to carry it if you don't have it accessible and are willing to use it. The canister needs to be readily at hand. If you have to fumble for it, it will probably be too little, too late. Especially for a female getting jumped in a dark parking garage with no one else around. In that kind of cercumstance, the can needs to be in the hand when the threat presents itself. Have it readily available, when the threat presents, don't hesitate - you don't need to wait to find out if the guy is serious. If you feel threatened, SPRAY HIM! As soon as you spray, move several steps left or right. The instinct of most preditors when sprayed is to move toward the last spot they saw the prey. You want to be out of that spot. If they seem to still be frisky - give them a second dose. I suggest one to two seconds of spray per dose. If there is more than one assailant, spray the nearest one and move the spray to the second guy without bothering to take your thumb off the trigger. Get them both (or all three) real good. Then, if it is one or more, get the h3ll out of Dodge. Get to the car, to the house, to the office - where ever is secure - and get behind a locked door. If it is your car, get the car moving. Then call the police. Let them know that there is an Orange guy in the parking garage at such and such a location and that you are at the corner of such and such. I suggest that anytime you feel that you might be entering a situation where an attack is possible (not waiting for an attacker to actually present) the spray be in your hand. I cheat a little on this. I carry a purse (a long story). My spray is in an outside pocket of the purse, with the trigger mechanism exposed. I can fire the spray without having to pull the canister from the bag. I suggest to my wife and daughter that they get a "holster" that will attach to their purse straps so that they can access the spray without having to dig for it. Otherwise, you need to find the spray and have it in hand any time you enter "ambush" territory.
    Lastly, if you buy spray, have everyone who is going to be armed gather in your yard on a relatively still day. Pick a tree or a spot on the fence and put up a target. Have each person stand about 5 feet from the target and fire a 1/2 to 1 second burst of spray at the target. They need to feel how much pressure it takes to get the unit to fire and what the point of aim is. After people have sprayed, have them all walk near the target. There should be enough residual material in the air for everyone to get a little taste of what the spray is like. Don't worry, from that exposure, the effects will wear off in just a few minutes.
    Hope this helps.

    R.I.P. Cyrano and Roxanne.

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