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Thread: Duke Lacrosse case being dropped...finally!

  1. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    No Flop, you studiously avoid class and color, as if it doesn't exist. As I've mentioned before, that is our history, and part of who we are today. That is America. To paraphrase John Lennon, we like to think we're all clever, and classless,and free. But were not. If you don't want to acknowledge that, well, you're supporting the status quo--which works fine if you're one of those with status.
    Show me where I've based my rationale on class and color. You're projecting your fixation on class and color onto me.

    I guess I'll shut it down for now, because we are saying the same things back and forth to each other.

    In summary, my point is that the Duke students are blameless in this incident, and I feel sorry for them, regardless of their color or class.

    The stripper, regardless of color or class, deserves all of the blame, and deserves any forthcoming punishment.

  2. #38
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    but many of you feel no compassion for the Duke kids, and strongly imply that the Dukies share some blame for being falsely accused of rape.

    No. If you don't want to try to follow my argument, and instead want to mischaracterize what I and others have said, you can drop it. Feel secure in the knowledge that your privilege as a white male in this country remains solid.

  3. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    You're right, they deserved to be accused of rape. I get it now.

    Why do you purposely fail to acknowledge her point? Why do you exaggerate someone's comment to bolster your point? No one here or anywhere else said they deserved to be accused of rape.

    I became aware of this game when I was just a child. Johnny does something wrong, that he knows was wrong. Dad starts to talk off the belt. Johnny screams and cries and says, "but Tommy did it!"--as if to say he's wrong doing is somehow not so wrong. Dad continues to take off his belt.

    I see Johnny all over the place these days. Talk radio uses that argument every day, and predictably, it comes up again in this story.
    In your analogy Johnny = Black Stripper. The Dad = the truth of the case. Who is tommy?

    What is going on?
    "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

  4. #40

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    I am not following the "race and class" line of thought. In my view it should be a straight legal issue.

    Question: WHO made it about race and class?

    Answer: media and Jackson and Sharpton.

    As soon as Jackson showed up, on scene, it became about race and class, did it not? That what he sells and the media was buying.

    You're a managing news editor. As soon as this story breaks you issue intructions for Sharpton and/or Jackson to be contacted for comment.

    Your an aide in the Rainbow Coalition. As soon as this story breaks you call for a new conference. When Jackson walks in and suggests a news conference you tell him it's already done.

    Their entire ensuing commentary was about race and class and lots of folks bought that.

    On the Nifong front it was about politics. As has happened in the past, a prosecutor saw the prosecution of a particular case as instrumental for winning an election. And also as has happened in the past, the prosecutor bent the rules in that endeavor.

    I am guessing Matclone that you felt the girl's story was undermined too soon in the legal process, and the reason for said undermining had racial and/or class-based motivation. You have been sensitive to the early leaks coming out in favor of the accused and questioned their reason. You also mistrusted why everyone seemed to so readily believe what was being leaked.

    As I look at it, I believe that the leaks were a result of good faith outrage on the part of the defense attorneys, who saw more more clearly and much earlier (they would theorectically be in that position) that a miscarriage of justice was occuring. I honestly believed you misinterpreted the timing of the events in this case.

    The clearest signal came from the state officials yesterday when they labelled the boys as INNOCENT. They didn't say "insufficient evidence" or "not at this time". There was little room for ambigiuty the way the announcment was worded.

    I never weighed in on this previously (except to attack Nifong) because I subscribed fully to your opinion about two possible sides to the story. I think it has now come to pass that all sides have been heard in the state's deliberation's and the jury has come back.

    UNLESS.......you think the state's ruling is politically motivated in both it's legal effect and specific wording.
    Last edited by LkwdSteve; 04-12-2007 at 09:22 PM.

  5. #41

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    "Feel secure in the knowledge that your privilege as a white male in this country remains solid."

    Feel secure in the knowledge that your white guilt makes you a revered figure by many in this country.

  6. #42
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    Steve, my race and class analysis is based on how this story has played out in the media. I hear everyone and their brother lambasting Sharpton and Jackson as if they instigated the story, and as if they entered it with nefarious intent. I don't know about Sharpton, but from what I've seen I believe Jackson operates with good intentions. I believe the story would have been big even without their appearance.

    Speaking just from my personal media experience, I never saw, or heard, Jackson, Sharpton, or Nifong say anything. I guess all of America was tuned into their televisions a year ago or so when this happened, because they seem to remember it so well, whereas I wasn't. I have since read that Nifong called the boys "hooligans". And someone said Sharpton called them "rapists".

    Over the past year, again, from my perception, the story has been a steady pounding drumbeat proclaiming the boys innocence, and the girl's guilt--as well as the guilt of anyone associated with her. One of my primary sources of information on this has been our wrestling forums, which I consider a microcosm of American opinion, albeit weighed to the male perspective. Another source has been the internet, mainstream news org's like AP. Another source, has been the local newspapers, although I haven't seen a whole lot there. Yet another source has been ESPN--which is probably the only one I've seen present some semblance of a neutral stance on the story. Another source, of course, is talk radio, which I listen to only occasionally when traveling, where the story has been a constant.

    From all these sources, over the past year, I've not heard a peep from the girl, the prosecutor, or her defenders (although they were apparently heard from soon after the event). I have heard plenty from the defense lawyers who regularly made media comments. Otherwise, I've heard plenty of opinions from these forums and talk radio, and they've been almost 100% conclusory as to the facts (the kids were falsely accused), and in their condemnation of the girl and anyone associated with her. In all this, a story of race and class has come through loud and clear.

    I am guessing Matclone that you felt the girl's story was undermined too soon in the legal process, and the reason for said undermining had racial and/or class-based motivation. You have been sensitive to the early leaks coming out in favor of the accused and questioned their reason. You also mistrusted why everyone seemed to so readily believe what was being leaked.

    That's a fair assessment.

    As I look at it, I believe that the leaks were a result of good faith outrage on the part of the defense attorneys, who saw more more clearly and much earlier (they would theorectically be in that position) that a miscarriage of justice was occuring. I honestly believed you misinterpreted the timing of the events in this case.

    Okay. But keep in mind the defense attorneys have a duty to be strong advocates for their client, and so I would expect them to present anything that sheds a favorable light on their clients, no matter how strong or weak. But it may be, as you say, they had justice on their side, and were running with it.

    The clearest signal came from the state officials yesterday when they labelled the boys as INNOCENT. They didn't say "insufficient evidence" or "not at this time". There was little room for ambigiuty the way the announcment was worded.

    Agree.

    I never weighed in on this previously (except to attack Nifong) because I subscribed fully to your opinion about two possible sides to the story. I think it has now come to pass that all sides have been heard in the state's deliberation's and the jury has come back.

    Well, we don't have the high evidentiary standards that a trial would entail, but yes, it appears the basic innocence of the boys has been established.

    UNLESS.......you think the state's ruling is politically motivated in both it's legal effect and specific wording.

    I have no reason to believe the state's legal conclusion was politically motivated, although the AG's public statements probably took some sort of political stance.
    Last edited by matclone; 04-13-2007 at 12:04 PM.

  7. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flop The Nuts View Post
    "Feel secure in the knowledge that your privilege as a white male in this country remains solid."

    Feel secure in the knowledge that your white guilt makes you a revered figure by many in this country.
    Cheap talk radio rhetoric, Flop. Rise above it. We have a history, and history matters. You admitted as much before in talking about your family history. But other people don't have histories, or to the extent they do, theirs are subject to your acknowledgment and acceptance?
    Last edited by matclone; 04-13-2007 at 11:30 AM.

  8. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by matclone View Post
    Cheap talk radio rhetoric, Flop. Rise above it. We have a history, and history matters. You admitted as much before in talking about your family history. But other people don't have histories, or to the extent they do, theirs are subject to your acknowledgment and acceptance?

    Again with the talk radio reference. As far as I know, and I could be completely wrong about this, Thomas Sowell was the originator of the white guilt theory, and I'm not aware that he has a radio show.

    I actually don't think that history matters as much as you say, so there is probably no middle ground between us.

  9. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flop The Nuts View Post
    Again with the talk radio reference. As far as I know, and I could be completely wrong about this, Thomas Sowell was the originator of the white guilt theory, and I'm not aware that he has a radio show.

    I actually don't think that history matters as much as you say, so there is probably no middle ground between us.
    I used the phrase "talk radio rhetoric"--meaning rhetoric of the sort you are likely to find on talk radio. It doesn't mean it is exclusively a talk radio phenomenon, but those who wallow in that format are the foremost proponents of such nonsense. Without doing a survey, I suggest that you will find the concept and phrase "white guilt" used on talk radio more than in any other medium. It's just another of many labels routinely affixed to the villains of talk radio, i.e., any person or idea who isn't fully on board with their junior high level concepts and banter. Repeat it often enough and it takes on a life of its own.

    Their standard procedure (SOP) is to cut down the messenger as much or more than to engage in any sort of arguments or reasoning. In fact, you really don't find too many arguments on talk radio, because most everything is presented as a simple and single-minded view--kind of like an infomercial. It's probably no coincidence that those shows are heavily filled with advertisements.

    But back to the idea of white guilt: I don't run around feeling guilty. But I try to be a realist and acknowledge our past and it's relation to the present. That includes recognizing racism and how it manifests itself. And you know, this doesn't just apply to the concept of racism and inequality, but to any of a number of human tendencies. The older I get, the more it seems that the same ideas and responses repeat themselves over and over. If you have children, you should recognize some of this right away (they act like you used to). If you read history, and contrast today's events with the past, common recurring themes emerge.
    Last edited by matclone; 04-13-2007 at 04:06 PM.

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