Re: Bonds 755 YESSSSSSSSSS

**Zapp Brannigan** · 08-06-2007, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by MOJO

Brother Spider,

I don't think it can fairly be called "false pretenses". It isn't like he didn't actually hit all 755+ home runs. How much the "cream & clear" contributed to his already gargantuan ability is highly debatable (although most would agree that it has allowed him to stay in the game and perform at a high level longer than one would expect from a ball player). Bonds was a great hitter before the BALCO scandel and had a pretty outrageous work-out regime that is also partially responsible for his late-age results. Even the gym juicer you referenced still had to go and lift the weights to develop the body he hopes to impress with.

To add on to this: Many guys used steroids since the mid '90s...only one hit 73 home runs in a season and 755 for their career.

**Spider** · 08-06-2007, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by VakAttack

Cheating is as much of a tradition of baseball as Cracker Jacks. From sign stealing, to amphetamines, to spitballers, to pine tar (snicker), to corked bats, to performance enhancing drugs. Are we now deciding what is "fair cheating" and what is "unfair cheating"?

So are you saying that if we can't adequately control it, we should look the other way? I'm a purist and an idealist, and while I may have my head in the clouds, I do believe that any cheating at all is inappropriate in and detrimental to sports (if the ref doesn't see the choke hold, it's okay to do it?).

**Zapp Brannigan** · 08-06-2007, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Spider

So are you saying that if we can't adequately control it, we should look the other way? I'm a purist and an idealist, and while I may have my head in the clouds, I do believe that any cheating at all is inappropriate in and detrimental to sports (if the ref doesn't see the choke hold, it's okay to do it?).

Nah, I'm just saying that if we're going to start taking away records because cheating occurred at some point during the record, that's going to be an awfully short record book. I doubt you'll be able to find even one professional athlete that hasn't cheated somehow during his career.

**Spider** · 08-06-2007, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by MOJO

Brother Spider,
I don't think it can fairly be called "false pretenses". It isn't like he didn't actually hit all 755+ home runs. How much the "cream & clear" contributed to his already gargantuan ability is highly debatable (although most would agree that it has allowed him to stay in the game and perform at a high level longer than one would expect from a ball player). Bonds was a great hitter before the BALCO scandel and had a pretty outrageous work-out regime that is also partially responsible for his late-age results. Even the gym juicer you referenced still had to go and lift the weights to develop the body he hopes to impress with.

Yes, he's a great hitter who now lays claim to being the best hitter of home runs. Whether it's steroids, a corked bat, or whatever, he didn't do it by virtue of skill and training alone - which is how records are supposed to be achieved.

**Spider** · 08-06-2007, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by VakAttack

Nah, I'm just saying that if we're going to start taking away records because cheating occurred at some point during the record, that's going to be an awfully short record book. I doubt you'll be able to find even one professional athlete that hasn't cheated somehow during his career.

Well then instead we'll have a long, but rather meaningless record book. I'm not saying that we should go back and investigate everyone. I'm just saying that when a record, or even a single game win, is achieved by cheating of any kind, it becomes meaningless . . . and I would (naively) think that the winner would get much less satisfaction knowing that he didn't win fairly. It all comes down to the purpose of sports and their role in our lives - and I realize that in professional sports this is different than in amateur sports, but some of the same philosophies apply.

**Zapp Brannigan** · 08-06-2007, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Spider

Well then instead we'll have a long, but rather meaningless record book. I'm not saying that we should go back and investigate everyone. I'm just saying that when a record, or even a single game win, is achieved by cheating of any kind, it becomes meaningless . . . and I would (naively) think that the winner would get much less satisfaction knowing that he didn't win fairly. It all comes down to the purpose of sports and their role in our lives - and I realize that in professional sports this is different than in amateur sports, but some of the same philosophies apply.

Ahhh, now we're debating something different. I agree, if it was me who achieved the record via cheating in anyway, it would feel hollow on a personal level.

**Spider** · 08-06-2007, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by VakAttack

Ahhh, now we're debating something different. I agree, if it was me who achieved the record via cheating in anyway, it would feel hollow on a personal level.

Right! So isn't such a record hollow in the eyes of anyone (like you and me) who values fair play?

**RYou** · 08-06-2007, 02:35 PM

Greenies may wake you up for a game, but they sure don't enhance your ability and performance the way roids will. PS roids won't do you much good unless you have the mad workout regimen Spider alluded to.

**Champ Kind** · 08-06-2007, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by RYou

Greenies may wake you up for a game, but they sure don't enhance your ability and performance the way roids will. PS roids won't do you much good unless you have the mad workout regimen Spider alluded to.

Greenies are still illegal by today's standards. I'm sure being more awake helps you concentrate better and probably helps you hit and field better too.

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