dangun

We all know freestyle/greco-roman wrestling is undoubtedly the best base for stand grappling. But what about in the mat grappling department? Does fs/gr wrestling necessarily benifit a fighter on the ground? After all, fs/gr wresling is all about back exposure. I think this is one reason we see whole lot'a collegiate wrestlers(which I heard is said to emphasize riding/control, positioning) instead of international style wrestlers. Any insights?

Schlottke

I think you're correct in the fact that a college wrestler is training better for MMA than their International counterparts, however, I think reason we are seeing most of them jumping into MMA now is that it pays a better than being a coach or training for the Olympics. (and is easier to qualify for)

good post

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dangun

don't know how the US pays for their wrestlers. My guess is that your average US wrestler don't make a very good living. I heard that wrestling is much more like a hobby rather than professional over there. It's hard to devote in wrestling when you pay for your own training and you have school education aside. That's one of the reasons I have mad respect American wrestlers.

Back to the original question, what do you guys think of the mat wrestling aspect of international style in MMA?

dangun

Do you guys think par-terre technique like gut wrenching or leg lacing has it's own benifit in MMA?

Big

It might be hard for Americans to understand but I would guess elite Russian Greco and freestyle wrestlers would consider it a step down to go into MMA. I think they consider themselves professional athletes but MMA is more like a thug sport to them.

dmaswary

I understand. I have been training my whole life and some people in MMA, while having tremendous courage, havent spent the years honing many martial arts in their entirety or doing one at an elite level. I find it distressing at times

In response specificaly as someoone who has gone from BJJ into lots of pure Wrestling watch the foloowing 3 fights

Fedor Coleman
Fedor Randleman
Fedor Lindland

All 3 were able to establish eye popping takedowns and had no answer to submissions. Sweeps are forign to Wrestlers as well

in short it is very hard to train an instict out of you and most wreslters "feel" that being on their back is wrong. Wrestling lends itself tremednously to

Grapevining-leg lacing
Reversals
top control
breakdowns
pummeling and maintining elbows in thoroughly

Wrestlers have a damned hard time with

Non-Choke submissions ( thhe difference between a front headlock and a rear naked choke is almost nil)

Leg submissions

The guard-period

Long legged sweep experts

Defending their backs from an opponents rear mount

achieving leg locks

defending leg locks


Overall it is an excellent base for someone who is truly prepared to modify their wrestling instincts and adopt the botom game. Randy Couture has done a fantastic job of it.

Schlottke

Well said!

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Lotta

I agree.

Actually, there are three styles of wrestling :

Fresstyle and Greco-Roman : the best for stand grappling / ground and pound strategy .

Grappling : the best for ground game without gi (a mix of bjj, catch wrestling, freestyle wrestling).

See Team Quest, Xtreme Couture, HIT Squad, Gilbert Grappling ...

http://www.themat.com/index.php?page...rticleID=16649



During 1993-1997 (UFC 1-12) there were three rules, no weight classes, no weight limits and unlimited rounds. Wrestlers won six tournaments : UFC 5, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 (lightweight/heavyweight title).

Now there are thirty rules, 8-ounce gloves, limited rounds and weight limits.

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Caspiantiger

The only whole in your argument is that often these folkstyle wrestlers dont have good ground work.
I would love to see more freestyle wrestlers in MMA, they seem to have better and wider range of technique.

dmaswary

To be fair, those rules favored Wrestlers heavily. I would hate to see those rules with Cro Cop or Fedor.


Team Quest and all of those arent really grapplers. In reality grappling does not exist yet. Their is only submisssion wrestling. No one (this is a soapbox for me as this is EXACTLY what I want to do) has developed a world class wrestling game with a world class BJJ game. Look at arguably the best grappling competitor around - Jeff Monosn; his bread and butter is BJJ and pure strength. Randy Couture made taking Tim Sylvia down look easy - Jeff Monson shot one dimensional double legas to get sprawled on many many times

The guys as Team Quest and other Wrestlers have developed a perfect adaptation of Wrestling to the ground. They use good chokes but they are usually modified headlocks and they cant really pass the guard and their knowledge of armlocks is rudimentary. They know how to defend BJJ perfectly and apply their wrestling. That is an art form. Lindland,Randleman and Coleman were all submitted with techniques that they really should not have been, if they were experienced at armlocks and kimuras etc........

Truth be told you want to see a good example of Wrestling and BJJ watch Murilo Bustamente versus Matt Lindland. Darrell Gholar (yeah I know I mention him every post) prepared Murilo to pummel and push Lindland to the cage and avoid the center of the ring. He took a silver medalist wrestler and pushed and pummeled to the cage and won the fight there. That was a good combo.

Although it goes contrary to what I said Randy Coutures win over Mike Van Arsdale was a great example; he won with a spinning gator choke which is a technical and difficult submission