p-jersey

Excellent points claudale. I am one of varners biggest fans so i was happy to see him move up to 197 so he could finally get over the hump and win a national title. It would have been unlikely he would have pulled it off at 184 seeing that the two guys that beat him in the two previous national finals (one of which completely handled him) were at that weight.

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Denver, CO-Wrestling

Adolf Oliverbush

Claudale are we speaking of International style wrestling, or college wrestling? It seems you are intermingling the two.

Lets see, yes Varner lost 2 seasons ago to Pucillo by riding time advantage.

In addition to that, however, Varner held Herbert to 1 point in their Midlands final, (he gave him an escape) and bludgeoned him into submission, (Yes Herbert actually tapped out during their match). It was a brutal beating Claudale, one in which Herbert took injury time, was bloodied up, was thrown to his back, and was blown out of every single position he tried to achieve. Coupled with his freestyle dominance, there is no doubt that Varner is the superior wrestler.

Lets also keep in mind that instead of sucking down to the lighter weight class, Varner went up in weight and dominates the next class up, (96 kilos). In terms of college wrestling, Varner bumped up there as well and won a national championship.

You must be arguing this topic, just to argue.

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Lets go Brent!

Adolf Oliverbush

And let us not forget the University National title that Varner won over Herbert as a mere freshmen. When you say Varner finally won a national title, you actually mean, Varner continues to add to his collection of national titles.

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Lets go Brent!

p-jersey

Yes please let the record show, varner did win some freestyle titles. I was happy to see him join the elite folkstyle club and win an ncaa title.

I definitely think though that varner would have wrestled back for third if he stayed at 184 and beaten the likes of keddy and umbehauer.

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Denver, CO-Wrestling

Adolf Oliverbush

Claudale I'm not going to let you do this. You're not going to bait me into an argument that's long ago been decided. Varner is on a lengthy winning streak against Herbert, (in both styles) and he rules both weight classes above Herbert and Pucillo, (96 kg and 197 lbs, respectively).

The beatings that Varner has handed Herbert are difficult to stomach for us Herbert fans. We eventually ran out of excuses, (he's not in shape, it was freestyle, he's not focusing on folkstyle, he didn't really care about that tournament, etc.) and were thrilled that Varner out grew the weight classes where Herbert now enjoys success after previously been frustrated with disappointing results. Lets just be glad we have both outstanding athletes on the world team but lets not make any mistake with who is higher up the pecking order. Don't believe me, simply check their head to head results and placements where both guys were entered in the same weight class. It isn't even competitive Claudale and you know this.

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Lets go Brent!

p-jersey

We eventually ran out of excuses and were thrilled that Varner out grew the weight classes where Herbert now enjoys success after previously been frustrated with disappointing results.

In regards to freestyle I would agree with you. In folkstyle Herbert previously won at 184 beating Varner in the finals so i can not jump on board with that.

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Denver, CO-Wrestling

Adolf Oliverbush

Varner came off of a broken leg to reach the national final as a freshmen. Herbert beat him and left no doubt as to who was better at folk style, during that point of their careers. No question, no debate. But in the rematch, after Varner had a year to mature and improve, it was all Varner. He throttled his much older opponent. Nothing Herbert tried worked. Nada, zilch, zero. Herbert, as much as I like him, was thoroughly frustrated and beaten physically, (some speculate that he was also beaten mentally). The man was forced to tap out, or risk being turned to his back, (he chose to cry uncle). That match was a humiliating experience not only for the PA native, but for his legions of fans. I was so disgusted, I stopped following Herbert's career for a few months, (I later came to my senses and continued to support him).

I Love both guys, they are both class acts and true sportsmen. I am happy for Herbert that Varner vacated the weight(s) that Herbert is/was in and both guys were able to win national titles this year. Kudos to both

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Lets go Brent!

Pimach

So, Hows about that Cormier dude......

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p-jersey

I am sorry but an early season overtime decision while herbert was focusing on another style is not enough to sway me. Keep in mind we are not discussing overall body of work as varner still has another year. We are also not discussing freestyle as varner has proven himself to be the leader there.

We are discussing hypothetically how varner would have done last year at 184. In 2007 herbert dominated varner in the finals, in 2008 varner got beat by pucillo in the finals. In 2009 herbert wins hodge goes undefeated and beats pucillo in impressive fashion in the 184 lb finals. Varner finally gets his title and has a great season but suffers a defeat to a non national champion.

Based on that info i dont believe that a december overtime match indicates that varner would have won the 184lb title specifically when he lost later that year to the 2009 2nd placer finisher.

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Denver, CO-Wrestling

vaisforlovers

I didn't realize that Adolf was a Varner fan.

Varner is one of my least favorite wrestlers(after his shove of kish he was on my sh-- list) but i think he is a good folkstyle wrestler and a tremendous freestlye talent.

Herbert Beat Varner during his peak while Varner was still coming into his own in my opinion. They both may well have great careers in freestlye, but i think Varner has the edge. Varner had some confusing losses last year, but to me the title wasn't in doubt.

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