Ground&Pound

I assume there was a time when all wrestling was a real competition.

When did it split into amateur wrestling and pro wrestling (WWE style)?

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buckeye125

late 19th century according to this article:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling

Ground&Pound

From what I found, Farmer Burns (1861-1973) was a legitimate wrestler. However, the fixing started with Farmer Burn's student Toots Mondt around 1919.

Anyone have anything to add?

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ideamark

Ask a bunch of pro rasslin' historians, and you'll get a different answer from each of them... some claiming pro wrestling was never legitimate competition. Some will say that only world championship matches were "shoots" (no pretermined outcome), while typical matches had a winner selected in advance, like today's WWE.

From what I've read about guys like Farmer Burns and his protege, Frank Gotch (Iowa native, world champ 1908-1913), I've come to the conclusion that most of their matches would've been legit... but I'm not sure.

The oldest known pro wrestling film in existance is the 1920 Madison Square Garden title bout between Joe Stecher of Nebraska and Earl Caddock of Iowa (Gotch's protege; Gotch died in 1917). The 20-minute segment I've seen of the two-hour match looks "real" to me -- in fact, other than the uniforms (full-length tights, no shirts) and the roped-off ring, it looks like a modern amateur wrestling match. No costumes, no off-the-top-rope theatrics.

In the 1920s is when pro matches became more theatrical, with aerial moves, whipping opponents into the ropes, that sort of thing. Wrestlers were cast in roles as good guys/bad guys, playing off ethnic stereotypes. Costumes started to make an appearance. Women's wrestling was also launched about this time, as were tag teams. Time-limits started about this time, too. (Until then, pro matches might go on for 2 or more hours... one went on for 8 hours!)

One reason why pro rasslin became more theatrical in the 1920s: Competition from other sports. Football was really becoming popular. Boxing was huge, with guys like Dempsey and Tunney. Baseball was also finding a national audience with superstars like Babe Ruth.

It was in the early 1900s that organized amatuer wrestling started to take off, as a counterpoint. Eastern colleges like Columbia and Penn State launched their programs 100 years ago. U of Iowa's first program was 1911; Oklahoma State was circa 1917, when Ed Gallagher arrived on campus.

Back in the early days of HS and college wrestling, there were similarities to pro wrestling. The uniforms were pretty much the same -- trunks and/or tights, often without shirts... many schools wrestled in rings... and some submission/punishing holds were allowed. In the 1930s and 40s, the rules were changed to ban dangerous aspects like the double-wrist lock and the full-height bodyslam. During World War II, rings were banned. In the mid 1960s, the NCAA required wrestlers to wear shirts.

Hope I haven't put anyone to sleep. For those who are still awake, a couple articles of possible interest:
> How amateur wrestling has changed over the years:
http://revwrestling.com/articles/296...iate-Wrestling

> Frank "the Iowa Plowboy" Gotch vs George "the Russian Lion" Hackenschmidt
http://revwrestling.com/articles/290...-Hackenschmidt

Mark

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Peace
www.RevWrestling.com

Those who are ignorant of wrestling history are doomed...

Ground&Pound

The reason I asked is that I was given a stack of old "RING" magazines that date back to the early 60's.

They are primarily boxing magazines but have articles about wrestling and discuss matches as if they were legit.

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JTProducer

More on Gotch: http://www.empirefilmgroup.com/gotch.html

ideamark

There's something in the pro rasslin' world referred to as "kayfabe" which I would say translates to doing whatever it takes to present and maintain the illusion that it's all real... even outside the ring.

Here's an incredible story I came across doing research on my Gary Kurdelmeier story for Rev. The 1958 Iowa NCAA champ was never a pro rassler but one of his college rivals, Tim Woodin of Michigan State, became one -- masked good-guy Mr Wrestling. Woodin was a passenger in a private plane that crashed in the south; the others on the plane were "heels" (other than the pilot, who was killed). Woodin, the management of the pro rasslin' organization, and even the police all played along, claiming that Woodin was NOT on the plane -- despite the fact he broke his back, and was out of the ring for months. Why? Because it would have broken "kayfabe" to have a good-guy traveling with bad guys. It wouldn't have made sense to pro rasslin fans -- sort of "consorting with the enemy."

Mark

__________________
Peace
www.RevWrestling.com

Those who are ignorant of wrestling history are doomed...

oc

G&P, Some matches as late as the 60's we straight, if two guys had a score to settle (or even one did) they might settle it in the ring. Lou Thesz recounts what he contends were shoots in his classic book, Hooker (Thesz is generally considered the last "real" champ). Regarding The Ring covering wrestling, one of the best wrestling historians was Nat Fleisher (sp) a boxing hstorian. Lots of boxers wrestled in the old days and lots of wrestlers boxed, they even had mixed matches, MMA is not new. Everything is much more segregated now, but, MMA will change that I guess.

akzent

Short after the World war I when people were eager for new forms of entertainment. It isn't known when exactly because initially the promotors tried to keep in secret the fact that the matches were arranged.

oc

Wrestling and boxing use to differentiate between works and fixes. Remember, when you look at history, don't look back with 21st century eyes. There was no orginized wrestling, no Div 1-2-3 to divide up talent. No teams, none of that. What there was in America was, town champs and carnivals coming through town. In Europe, in particular Ireland, though I'm sure it was probably the same everywhere, town champs (the bullie) met all comers, the champ was usually "supported" by the town. Business fairs would come to town (merchants would sell their wool and crops at market) and people would fight.

Regardless, fighters being fighters and managers being managers, those in the know realized the futility of a dominating win. Imagine I'm a town champ and the carnival comes to town, their champ is someone like Mark Schultz, Cael Sanderson, etc... who's going to win? The carnival champ of course, now, if he wins quick and decisevly, how do both sides make money? So, it's arranged Mark/Cael will carry me and win in 2 straight falls. Was it fixed, no, the best man won. Was it worked, yes, so money could be made for both sides.

It was like this in all prizefighting, the Fancy (true fans, the smart money) knew what was going on, the "Hey, let's go down and catch a fight" fan may have been at a loss but that was it.