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Thread: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

  1. #64

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    No one wants to go to a varsity contest and see inexperienced athletes compete against each other. If they wanted that, then they'd go to the JV, freshman or middle school events.

    We have too many inexperienced wrestlers being thrown into varsity spots in wrestling and this happens at an ugly rate at 103lbs. That is one of the reasons people find it boring to watch. Its also something that could be fixed with something as simple as raising the lowest weight class to something like 108-110. The other things that could help are more drastic changes.
    Who are the contests for? Certainly not the spectators. As a parent I always thought the contests were so that the ATHLETES could compete, not to entertain the spectators.

    At any rate, I find the middle weights the most entertaining, the lower weights next most entertaining, and lastly I really find the high weights full of fat kids who roll around and slap each other's belly rolls. I can't stand the heavier matches.

  2. #65

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    BMT-your post is an interesting one. For the record, I am a woman and I never wrestled. Boring is my issue. I don't mind watching kids I know wrestle. The tournaments drive me nuts though because it's nearly impossible to know anything about any of the matches going on at the larger meets. That's what makes it boring to me. The matches themselves are tolerable but it seems like hours in between matches (sometimes).

    The homophobic issue is one I have heard from multiple middle school/younger hs kids. These kids are not shy about playing football. Some of them also pay lax so none of them are afraid of contact. However, the whole wrestling image is different. It's CLOSE body to body contact with another sweaty male as opposed to football where the kids wear a ton of padding. My son tries to get his football friends to wrestle. I have heard this with my own ears.

    The singlet doesn't help in this regard either but I haven't heard kids give this as a reason why they don't wrestle. You are right about Under Armour. No reason why tight fit UA wrestling gear cannot be developed so that kids feel more masculine (and less ridiculous) in their wrestling uniforms. Our kids wear team sweats to meets.

    Forced weight loss is an issue many of MY FRIENDS give as a reason why they won't let their kids wrestle. Frankly, some of the kids I see at meets are so skinny they scare me. Luckily, my son's coach does not believe in kids cutting more than a few pounds (my 115 lb son will wrestle at 112 unless he gains a ton of weight) so I have not had to deal with this issue but it is an issue that causes parents to keep their kids off the wrestling team. Many of us in our 40s remember wrestlers wearing rubber suits, plastic bags, etc. and do not want our sons engaging in such dangerous practices.

  3. #66

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    I would argue that consciously cutting only a few pounds is extremely destructive. It's also very, very deceiving. Most kids, if they made no attempt to lose weight, would finish the end of the season at a lighter weight than what they started at. If they have low body fat to begin with, they should in theory gain weight throughout the season. That's if you eat normally. After about two weeks, your body if properly nourished, should be going through what is the best weight lifting routine the world's ever seen.

    After all, wrestling in a sense, is resistance and lifting, almost the entire time you're out there.

    If we went to a matside weigh in process, you would be able to acgtually have kids simply wrestle what they weigh and learn what the real body processes are for people in our sport. Right now, I really don't think we have too many reliable studies done or teams with documented results that show what happens when you just wrestle a season without regard to weight. I have had teams do it for several years now, but haven't heard a lot coming from teams that have done that.

    For what it's worth, I'm absolutely convinced that the boring stretches you complain about are real, and that they're also caused by poor weight management and forced weight loss. We have a problem in this sport where people think that it's less than it used to be, so some weight loss is no big deal. It is a big deal. If it's deliberate on a teenage boy, unless he's the son of the stay puft marshallow man, they aren't at an age to be doing that. In college, I think it's just as bad. Check out the grade results for wrestling at DI schools and you can't deny the link between wrestling and lower grades. What's the cause? Well, if you don't eat right, you don't think right. Just a thought.

    Matside weigh ins and the elimination of singlets would by themselves, do a great deal of work to improve the sport's image. The homophobic problem is one that we can do some things to help curb. I am not a homophobic person, but from an image standpoint I'm a realist, and it's not an image we want anything to do with.

    With that said, it troubles me when I see images that WE put out as a sport, or let people use as a wrestling image for t-shirts. Some of them, for lack of a better comparison, look more fruity than a bowl of Pebbles. You can't justify some of them as being representative of the sport, and do nothing to improve our image. We have people who gripe and complain about our guilt by association with gay issues, with the relationship to "pro" wrestling, but what are we doing to improve the image?

    The top guns in our sport should formally request that t-shirt and awards companies retract several images that are commonly used and hire a PR firm to create acceptable logos and images to use on things. The parade of redneck t-shirts that companies make need to go out the window.

  4. #67

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMT View Post
    I would argue that consciously cutting only a few pounds is extremely destructive. It's also very, very deceiving. Most kids, if they made no attempt to lose weight, would finish the end of the season at a lighter weight than what they started at. If they have low body fat to begin with, they should in theory gain weight throughout the season. That's if you eat normally. After about two weeks, your body if properly nourished, should be going through what is the best weight lifting routine the world's ever seen.

    After all, wrestling in a sense, is resistance and lifting, almost the entire time you're out there.

    If we went to a matside weigh in process, you would be able to acgtually have kids simply wrestle what they weigh and learn what the real body processes are for people in our sport. Right now, I really don't think we have too many reliable studies done or teams with documented results that show what happens when you just wrestle a season without regard to weight. I have had teams do it for several years now, but haven't heard a lot coming from teams that have done that.

    For what it's worth, I'm absolutely convinced that the boring stretches you complain about are real, and that they're also caused by poor weight management and forced weight loss. We have a problem in this sport where people think that it's less than it used to be, so some weight loss is no big deal. It is a big deal. If it's deliberate on a teenage boy, unless he's the son of the stay puft marshallow man, they aren't at an age to be doing that. In college, I think it's just as bad. Check out the grade results for wrestling at DI schools and you can't deny the link between wrestling and lower grades. What's the cause? Well, if you don't eat right, you don't think right. Just a thought.

    Matside weigh ins and the elimination of singlets would by themselves, do a great deal of work to improve the sport's image. The homophobic problem is one that we can do some things to help curb. I am not a homophobic person, but from an image standpoint I'm a realist, and it's not an image we want anything to do with.

    With that said, it troubles me when I see images that WE put out as a sport, or let people use as a wrestling image for t-shirts. Some of them, for lack of a better comparison, look more fruity than a bowl of Pebbles. You can't justify some of them as being representative of the sport, and do nothing to improve our image. We have people who gripe and complain about our guilt by association with gay issues, with the relationship to "pro" wrestling, but what are we doing to improve the image?

    The top guns in our sport should formally request that t-shirt and awards companies retract several images that are commonly used and hire a PR firm to create acceptable logos and images to use on things. The parade of redneck t-shirts that companies make need to go out the window.
    You mean the shirts that say something like "My wrestling mom can beat up your soccer mom"? They irritate me. I don't want to beat up anyone. I'm there for support.

    I agree that cutting weight is a problem. My son will have no problem shedding 3 lb during wrestling season if he is still 115 in October. He has gained 16 lb since wrestling ended so I think he will be really close to 119 by the time wrestling starts. He is afraid he will be to short to wrestle 119 next season. Football (and puberty) have started him on a growth spurt that absolutely requires him to gain weight.

    Luckily his coaches do not support cutting weight, especially among the younger kids. He's 14. He needs to eat. When he gets home from his football workouts he's STARVING. He eats almost a whole meal (like a sandwich and a piece of fruit) and then eats whatever I cook for dinner also. He is not fat. He's just growing really fast. I can't imagine asking him to lower his food intake.

  5. #68
    Olympic Champ r.payton@att.net's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    MY proposal for new weights would be
    108, 115, 121, 127, 133, 139, 145, 152, 160, 171, 180, 189, 215, 285

    103lbs is too small these days and just in Indiana over 20% of the teams forfeited the weight this year. Also, way too many freshmen are starting at 103lbs these days. Back when I was in high school(about 10 years ago), there were many more juniors and seniors at that weight. Too many kids are being thrown into these spots just because they are small, while you see 185lb juniors and seniors sit the bench because they are stuck between weight classes. Keeping 103lbs or 98lbs as a JV or freshman weight is fine, but as a varsity weight it needs to go. Kids are bigger these days and with the new weight loss rules less and less kids can make the weight AND be healthy at the same time.

    We also need a weight class around 180lbs to help get bigger guys out for the sport. The 18lbs gap is way too much and there is no real weight class in high school that correlates to the 184lb weight class in college.
    I agree completely only I'd make the jump from 189 to 192-5.Too many kids wrestling 215 that weigh 195 . 171 -189-215 as it stands now -at least here -is just too large a gap-my senior year -30 some years ago Yoder -our coach -literally pulled a kid out of Gym class just so we wouldn't forfeit -our line-up was hell on wheels from 105 through Hwt. though . That kid from Indian Creek won the state as a frosh at 103 and went unbeaten-but when he would wrestle freestyle and go 112 he routinely got his arse kicked . Whenever a weight class involves a leap of 10-15 % of a kids total body mass you're askng alot out of that kid .

  6. #69
    Olympic Champ r.payton@att.net's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proudpatriot View Post
    The reason that wrestling is not as popular as football and basketball has nothing to do with the 103 lb weight class. IMO the reasons that it's not as popular as football and basketball are:

    1. It's boring to watch. I have to admit I can watch any reasonably competent kids play football or lax, but wrestling is mind numbingly boring. I only watch my son, or his teammates.
    2. It's harder to do than any other sport. I think wrestling is the most physically demanding sport there is. Many kids just don't want to work that hard.
    3. Many boys are homophobic and do not want to roll around touching other boys intimately. I have heard this from a ton of my son's friends who are fabulous athletes.
    4. Tournaments are 2 day events, often in distant locations. This is tough on parents.
    5. Girls like football and basketball (in our school baseball) players more than wrestlers. Sorry but it's true. My son is glad he plays football even though he won't see as much action on the football field he gets to wear that jersey to school on game day......

    The reason there are fewer upperclassmen at lighter weights is that KIDS GROW!!! My son currently weighs 113lb. He's 14. He won't be 113lb when he's 18.
    Whenever one of my kids was taking crap off an almighty basketball player about him being gay or liking grabbing boy's i'd tell my wrestler to ask the b-baller -usually at lunch-to finish his shot and then ask him how gay he looked -nothing on Earth sillier looking than a 14 year old limp wristing it in front of the 'in' crowd at lunch .
    i used to tell my principal to do the same thing -THERE exists no more OBNOXIOUS creature than a former high School basketball star in the state of Indiana .

  7. #70

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    I agree with the weight cutting. There is absolutely too much of it going on and the weight testing has just made the weight cutting begin earlier in the season. One of the top wrestlers in our state last year was cutting weight before tests. He did so because there was no way with his height and build that he would have been allowed to wrestle the weight he wanted to. So to "beat" the system he dropped well below the weight he wanted to certify and drank extra water several hours before the test.

    Ridiculous and not the way our sport should do things. I have had 3 kids over the last two years that told me they wanted to wrestle a particular weight. The weight was well within the weight they could wrestle in. I watched as they tried to make the weight and then 2 weeks before the season just bumped them up and wouldn't allow the weight loss. They performed better than expected.

    The singlets issue hasn't ever really been a problem I've heard any of the athletes around here talk about. The two piece would be fine. Not a whole lot different but fine. Don't like the idea of board shorts as I think hand and finger injuries would increase.

    Bare minimum intake for my wrestlers is 16 calories per pound per day during the season. Most still lose weight without trying. Yes even the heaveyweights. Most tell me they can't even eat that much food. Bringing in dieticians helps because then they realize that they can eat alot of food if they choose whole food instead of processed food.

  8. #71

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proudpatriot View Post
    Who are the contests for? Certainly not the spectators. As a parent I always thought the contests were so that the ATHLETES could compete, not to entertain the spectators.

    At any rate, I find the middle weights the most entertaining, the lower weights next most entertaining, and lastly I really find the high weights full of fat kids who roll around and slap each other's belly rolls. I can't stand the heavier matches.
    Without fans the sport will die. Without fans we will not be able to pay the bills for the rising transportation costs. Without fans very few new wrestlers will start wrestling.

    We need fans in the stands and need to give them a good product to watch while there.
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  9. #72

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Currently about 25% of matches in dual meets are a forfeit. The most forfeited weight classes in order are: 103, 112, 119, 189 and then 171. The forfeit data is actually pretty low at 215 and 285. It is also pretty evenly consistent in the middle weights.

    The data we (NWCA) are collecting also shows that about 45% of matches end in a fall.

    So 70% of the dual matches are ending by either fall or forfeit.

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