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Thread: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

  1. #55

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Great, you pointed out a exemption, but the majority of the kids NEVER play the varsity level in the instances I pointed out.

    If you have kids like David Taylor, the Stiebers, Chris Phillips, Destin McCaulley, Eric Devous, etc, they are exceptions, but they aren't the true reality of what a freshman wrestler is. If all freshmen wrestlers were like those guys, we wouldn't have the problem of inexperienced wrestlers starting on the varsity team.

    Would the LAX or football coach move up a first year player to the JV or varsity squad even though he has pretty much no clue what he is doing? If he did, he wouldn't have a job for very long! Wrestling coaches are forced to bring those types of kids to the varsity level when they are not ready for the varsity level.
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  2. #56

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    Great, you pointed out a exemption, but the majority of the kids NEVER play the varsity level in the instances I pointed out.

    If you have kids like David Taylor, the Stiebers, Chris Phillips, Destin McCaulley, Eric Devous, etc, they are exceptions, but they aren't the true reality of what a freshman wrestler is. If all freshmen wrestlers were like those guys, we wouldn't have the problem of inexperienced wrestlers starting on the varsity team.

    Would the LAX or football coach move up a first year player to the JV or varsity squad even though he has pretty much no clue what he is doing? If he did, he wouldn't have a job for very long! Wrestling coaches are forced to bring those types of kids to the varsity level when they are not ready for the varsity level.
    My son started as an 8th grader but he had a season of wrestling under his belt. He will probably also start as a freshman, but this will be his 3rd year wrestling. We also had a 7th grader start at 119 last season but he had YEARS of wrestling under his belt. Both boys had to wrestle off EVERY WEEK for their spots.

    My point is that other sports have kids who are good move up a level all the time. Maybe things are different where you are but we don't have kids just walking up and making varsity just because they are light. We have young kids at those spots but not just because they are light.

  3. #57

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    So you are basing you analysis on experience at one school?

    I know at least 27% of the schools in Indiana you could be a varsity wrestler if you showed up and weighed 103lbs. That is at least 84 schools out of 244(approx 64 schools not accounted for) where a kid would get a varsity spot just for being 100lbs, with no wrestling experience what-so-ever. Add to that the 50 or at least 16% that could get varsity spots at 112lbs too.

    *Note the 27% and 16% numbers are based on all the schools and data from 64 schools was not collected. From just the schools data was found at the numbers rise to 34% and 20%.
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  4. #58

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    So you are basing you analysis on experience at one school?

    I know at least 27% of the schools in Indiana you could be a varsity wrestler if you showed up and weighed 103lbs. That is at least 84 schools out of 244(approx 64 schools not accounted for) where a kid would get a varsity spot just for being 100lbs, with no wrestling experience what-so-ever. Add to that the 50 or at least 16% that could get varsity spots at 112lbs too.

    *Note the 27% and 16% numbers are based on all the schools and data from 64 schools was not collected. From just the schools data was found at the numbers rise to 34% and 20%.
    i know kids at many high schools in Broward county and I can honestly say that almost all the kids who wrestle at 103 have to wrestle off for their spots. Just showing up is not enough.

  5. #59

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Lets look at the state qualifiers at 103 and 140 this year in Florida
    103
    8th-2
    9th- 11
    10th- 17
    11th- 12
    12th- 6

    18 of 48 are upperclassmen

    140lbs
    8th-1
    9th- 2
    10th- 7
    11th- 16
    12th- 22

    38 of 48 are upperclassmen

    Notice a huge difference? The most experienced wrestlers are going to be upperclassmen. It takes a lot more to earn to a spot at state at 140lbs than it does at 103lbs where the state qualifiers are dominated by underclassmen.

    I know it is hard for you to grasp the concept that varsity athletics in most sports is reserved for mainly juniors and seniors. Look at the starting line-ups of most football or basketball teams and you will see teams with the upperclassmen as the majority of the starters. Of course there will always be some young kids that will start for those teams, but they are few and far between. You will see some sophomores starting and even less freshmen. These kids are earning their spots because they are better than other juniors and seniors at their positions. VERY rarely, if ever, are they given a starting position based on size and having nothing to do with ability. In wrestling too many kids are given those spots or have to wrestle-off with other freshmen for a varsity spot.

    I want wrestling to be as popular as football and basketball, but in no way will we compete with those sports when our varsity teams sport glorified middle school kids battling it out at 103 and possibly 112. The fans want to see the good wrestlers and good matches. Good matches aren't the ones between first year wrestlers, they are the ones with wrestlers who have multiple years of experience battling it out.
    Last edited by Champ Kind; 07-31-2008 at 12:27 PM.
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  6. #60

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    The reason that wrestling is not as popular as football and basketball has nothing to do with the 103 lb weight class. IMO the reasons that it's not as popular as football and basketball are:

    1. It's boring to watch. I have to admit I can watch any reasonably competent kids play football or lax, but wrestling is mind numbingly boring. I only watch my son, or his teammates.
    2. It's harder to do than any other sport. I think wrestling is the most physically demanding sport there is. Many kids just don't want to work that hard.
    3. Many boys are homophobic and do not want to roll around touching other boys intimately. I have heard this from a ton of my son's friends who are fabulous athletes.
    4. Tournaments are 2 day events, often in distant locations. This is tough on parents.
    5. Girls like football and basketball (in our school baseball) players more than wrestlers. Sorry but it's true. My son is glad he plays football even though he won't see as much action on the football field he gets to wear that jersey to school on game day......

    The reason there are fewer upperclassmen at lighter weights is that KIDS GROW!!! My son currently weighs 113lb. He's 14. He won't be 113lb when he's 18.

  7. #61

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proudpatriot View Post
    The reason that wrestling is not as popular as football and basketball has nothing to do with the 103 lb weight class. IMO the reasons that it's not as popular as football and basketball are:
    No one wants to go to a varsity contest and see inexperienced athletes compete against each other. If they wanted that, then they'd go to the JV, freshman or middle school events.

    We have too many inexperienced wrestlers being thrown into varsity spots in wrestling and this happens at an ugly rate at 103lbs. That is one of the reasons people find it boring to watch. Its also something that could be fixed with something as simple as raising the lowest weight class to something like 108-110. The other things that could help are more drastic changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proudpatriot View Post
    The reason there are fewer upperclassmen at lighter weights is that KIDS GROW!!! My son currently weighs 113lb. He's 14. He won't be 113lb when he's 18.
    Wow, really, you have to be kidding me! I thought people shrunk between the age of 14 and 18.
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  8. #62

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    The weight class issue is a hot topic right now in the high school wrestling community as I am sure everyone is aware.

    The National High School Federation has begun the process of evaluating this issue and will be working closely with each of the state high school associations to make sure a well thoughout decision is made on this issue.

    We (the NWCA) is providing all kinds of empircal data (assessment data, result data, forfeit data and etc) to the NFHS to be studied and reviewed to make any decisions that are made have data behind it.

  9. #63

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proudpatriot View Post
    The reason that wrestling is not as popular as football and basketball has nothing to do with the 103 lb weight class. IMO the reasons that it's not as popular as football and basketball are:

    1. It's boring to watch. I have to admit I can watch any reasonably competent kids play football or lax, but wrestling is mind numbingly boring. I only watch my son, or his teammates.
    2. It's harder to do than any other sport. I think wrestling is the most physically demanding sport there is. Many kids just don't want to work that hard.
    3. Many boys are homophobic and do not want to roll around touching other boys intimately. I have heard this from a ton of my son's friends who are fabulous athletes.
    4. Tournaments are 2 day events, often in distant locations. This is tough on parents.
    5. Girls like football and basketball (in our school baseball) players more than wrestlers. Sorry but it's true. My son is glad he plays football even though he won't see as much action on the football field he gets to wear that jersey to school on game day......

    The reason there are fewer upperclassmen at lighter weights is that KIDS GROW!!! My son currently weighs 113lb. He's 14. He won't be 113lb when he's 18.
    If all those reasons are true, it doesn't help to explain how some schools with low populations have high numbers of kids who wrestle and in other schools with huge populations you have sparse teams.

    I think that what is more accurately, a lot of wrestling people don't view our own sport as what it is and has the potential to be. I also think that many, many wrestling coaches around the US have no idea what a negative image they allow for the sport by the way in which they do things.

    Some of the stuff you say is true, but I don't think it limits numbers per se. A coach who is aware of an image of the team and the sport would do things to address that and play it down. I think those things are more commonly used as reasons to justify not recruiting all that well.

    A lack of something, say like a starting spot, usually tends to create competition for the item or spot that is hard to get. It's very possible that 14 starting spots, more than any other sport in high school, creates a mentality of "they need me" rather than "I need them".

    As for the homophobic stuff....I think it's more of an excuse, as football truly isn't a whole lot different, but who are we to blame for that anyway? There is not one single, solitary good reason to still require a singlet. With the advent of under armour, why make the singlet...which has generated more mockery of our sport than anything else, mandatory. I think it's because the leaders who run our sport are less than clueless, bordering on dilusional, and lack vision when it comes to the image and growth of the sport.

    We have MMA going through the roof in popularity using our own guys and making them superstars. The homophobic issue doesn't seem to be slowing them down, and I think that most of what you said in that were convenient excuses to pass off having to work to build programs. I think we love to brag about the work, but when that work entails using the brain to work, we back off. Kids don't just show up to wrestle at some schools, have built in natural hatred for it at others. You have to sell it, and that takes using the brain. All the technique in the world means nothing if you have nobody to teach it to.

    Right now, wrestling is wrestling's own worst enemy. We've gone to an endless season. We still fail to get what forced weight loss has done to our sport. We still force kids to put on a "leotard" to go compete even though we have a viable and more popular alternative. We have a big percentage of people who don't think we should buddy up with MMA and an equal number who don't think girl's/women's wrestling is a good thing. We still judge our college coaching pool on their competitive merits, rather than their coaching and personality merits. We put our biggest meets in brain-dead locations that are the most expensive places in the nation to fly to. The same people who don't want to go to less weight classes are in some cases stating that they don't think wrestling is popular enough to expect to have big teams. We have many people who love to wrestle, but I question their love of wrestling....as there seems to be a lot of people who bemoan the sport as boring, which while I have major issues with the sport it's the management of it and not the action in it.

    I love the sport and think it's the greatest one on the planet, but hate to admit that I think it's the worst managed sport on any planet....not just this one. If there are sports on other planets, they can't be as poorly ran as ours.

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