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Thread: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

  1. #37

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    A couple of thoughts. I am certainly not interested in how our weight classes relate to the college weight classes. All you have to do is look at the number of athletes that even make the jump to college athletics so that argument doesn't even fly.

    7th and 8th graders competing is another issue that is really irrelevant. I can promise you that I can walk through the halls of my school and find plenty of guys to fill my roster at every weight. But, I can tell you the school I coach at has more kids at 103 pounds that 285. Of all of the male athletes at our 4A school we have exactly 3 kids that weigh over 260. The heaviest is 270. I could find 2 dozen or more kids that weigh under 103 lbs. My sophomore 103 last season was 53-2 with 2 wins by forfeit. Oh and by the way he won 9 matches at 112. So please don't try to imply that he couldn't compete at a higher weight.

    Higher weights need to have another weight class? Really. The numbers in our state don't support that. Think about it. These are the weight class differences.
    number of competitors
    at state tournament
    103 + 9 = 38
    112 + 7 = 42
    119 + 6 = 46
    125 + 5 = 47
    130 + 5 = 48
    135 + 5 = 45
    140 + 5 = 46
    145 + 7 = 42
    152 + 8 = 46
    160 + 11 = 50
    171 + 18 = 45
    189 + 26 = 53
    215 + 70 = 49
    285 38

    So let me get this right we should eliminate one of the lower weight classes when it has as many guys as the heaviest weight class. I think that is ridiculous. We eliminate it then add the 180 for instance and then we spread the guys from 171 and 189 to 180 and what do we have? Lower numbers in those upper weight classes.

    This gets back to my original argument. This isn't about what's best for the kids. Admit it. It's about how can we be more competitive as a high school team. How can we make our chances of winning a state championship better? We talk about the life lessons we teach and pound our chests touting how our sport does it. Yet we then ask our athletes to cut too much weight, drive them into the ground when they lose, and exagerate the importance of the holy grail known as the state championship. This is a game like any other and I hope that my athletes enjoy themselves. I know that very few are going to the next level. That's reality. I am more proud of my kids when they come home with degrees than any of their athletic endeavors. Sometimes our views get skewed.

    Kris Kienzle

  2. #38
    Olympic Champ therick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    I nearly posted something on this thread last night very similar to Champ's initial post with similar justification and numbers showing how the only weight in Ohio with the majority of state qualifiers coming from 9th and 10th grade is 103. The number of qualifiers and placers coming from those grades drops exponentially with each weight until there is only the random, very elite, 9th or 10th grader at 125 and higher. The inverse can be said for seniors and juniors as the weights go up. Those trends are more pronounced as you go up from Div. 3 to Div 1.

    But, I knew some dad with a tiny kid would get on here and talk about how raising the lowest weight was taking opportunity away from small kids. As if, they are cut from the wrestling team and can't practice, or compete in freshman and JV events if they're not on varsity. I guess I don't see anything wrong with those kids having to lift, practice and work for a year or two until they're good enough and strong enough to win the varsity spot, instead of just being given the spot because they're small. Or, simply having to beat another freshman for the spot.

    The fact is that they've been shifting the weights up as Champ said, every 15 or 20 years and it's time to make another adjustment. I agree that they should do something about the jump from 171 to 189 because it's too big of a gap, with a lot of kids in that gap. I personally don't like the 5 pound gaps in the middle weights either since it's too easy for kids to either cut or jump to another weight to avoid a stud. Why not simply use the ncaa weights with two more added below 125? Using the 8 lb gaps that gives us 117 and 109.

    Either way, it'll change eventually and in another 20 years some other parent who's kid is 109 pounds will complain that making the lowest weight 112 is taking opportunity away from too many kids.

  3. #39

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Why does everyone come back to the NCAA comment? How many of these guys are going there? So lets not try to make high school athletics the mini NCAA. There's nothing wrong with kids having to sit and wait, grow, get stronger, and mature. None of the incoming freshmen are going to beat out my 103 or my 112. And they don't have the spot because they are the only kid in school that size. Have you walked the halls at your local high school lately? I see plenty of little kids. Oh wait. I get it you want wrestling to take just the biggest, strongest kids. I like the fact that I can take some of these smaller athletes and get them involved when thay have been shunned by the other sports because they are too small or too slow. The football coach comes a knocking a couple of years later when they have finally grown. Funny how that works.

  4. #40
    Olympic Champ therick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Who is the you in your statement "I get it you want wrestling to tak just the biggest, strongest kids." I didn't see anyone making anything at all similar to that statement.

    To be honest, I love the fact that wrestling is the most inclusive sport in most school's athletic department. I think it's great that even the smallest can compete on equal footing with other small kids. I can simply see both sides of the argument. I agree that there should be opportunity for the smaller kids. However, I can also see how some see 103 as a weak weight class, not worthy of the title of varsity, since it's the only weight that's made up of mostly 9th and 10th graders.

    As for the ncaa thing.....I'm not saying that it should be a little ncaa. However, I've noticed that only those open to changing the weights are submitting ideas for how to fix some of the other problems that exist with the current weights. Namely the 5lb jumps in the middle with huge jumps at the ends, especially the 18lb jump from 171 - 189 and the 9 pound jump from 103 to 112. Even if you kept 13 or 14 weights, I think the classes could be more evenly spread so that the gaps are no more than 10 or 11 pounds up top and no less than 7 or 8 pounds in the middle and lower weights.

  5. #41

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by coachbull View Post
    A couple of thoughts. I am certainly not interested in how our weight classes relate to the college weight classes. All you have to do is look at the number of athletes that even make the jump to college athletics so that argument doesn't even fly.

    7th and 8th graders competing is another issue that is really irrelevant. I can promise you that I can walk through the halls of my school and find plenty of guys to fill my roster at every weight. But, I can tell you the school I coach at has more kids at 103 pounds that 285. Of all of the male athletes at our 4A school we have exactly 3 kids that weigh over 260. The heaviest is 270. I could find 2 dozen or more kids that weigh under 103 lbs. My sophomore 103 last season was 53-2 with 2 wins by forfeit. Oh and by the way he won 9 matches at 112. So please don't try to imply that he couldn't compete at a higher weight.

    Higher weights need to have another weight class? Really. The numbers in our state don't support that. Think about it. These are the weight class differences.
    number of competitors
    at state tournament
    103 + 9 = 38
    112 + 7 = 42
    119 + 6 = 46
    125 + 5 = 47
    130 + 5 = 48
    135 + 5 = 45
    140 + 5 = 46
    145 + 7 = 42
    152 + 8 = 46
    160 + 11 = 50
    171 + 18 = 45
    189 + 26 = 53
    215 + 70 = 49
    285 38

    So let me get this right we should eliminate one of the lower weight classes when it has as many guys as the heaviest weight class. I think that is ridiculous. We eliminate it then add the 180 for instance and then we spread the guys from 171 and 189 to 180 and what do we have? Lower numbers in those upper weight classes.

    This gets back to my original argument. This isn't about what's best for the kids. Admit it. It's about how can we be more competitive as a high school team. How can we make our chances of winning a state championship better? We talk about the life lessons we teach and pound our chests touting how our sport does it. Yet we then ask our athletes to cut too much weight, drive them into the ground when they lose, and exagerate the importance of the holy grail known as the state championship. This is a game like any other and I hope that my athletes enjoy themselves. I know that very few are going to the next level. That's reality. I am more proud of my kids when they come home with degrees than any of their athletic endeavors. Sometimes our views get skewed.

    Kris Kienzle
    I guess I might be reading your stats wrong, but the three biggest weight classes are 215, 189 and 160. Telling me the most popular weight classes are the heavier ones! How do you know the same number of kids would be out for the sport if you add a 180lbs weight class? My guess is there are more JV kids at 160-215lbs than at 103-125lbs.

    Your 4A school has probably 15 kids over 200lbs. You don't need to be 260lbs to wrestle heavyweight. Also you just mention the male athletes, what about the non-athletes? Why don't go after them like you do the little guys? It seems you are biased towards the little guys and more concerned about getting them out for the sport. You want a small weight class just to see your halfway talented freshman have an inflated record his first year. Then when he goes up to 112 or 119, reality hits and he is merely an average wrestler at the higher weights.

    Quote Originally Posted by coachbull View Post
    Have you walked the halls at your local high school lately? I see plenty of little kids. Oh wait. I get it you want wrestling to take just the biggest, strongest kids.
    Yes I have seen the kids in our school. Maybe two or three are around 105lbs or less. We have probably 10 or so that are over 200lbs. Moving the lowest weight class to 108lbs is not going to shun the smaller athletes. They will still have a small weight class to participate in. They may just take a few more lumps because they will get some more upperclassmen in their weight class at 108lbs.
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  6. #42

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    For instance two years ago, in Indiana, all 16 state qualifiers at 215lbs were seniors. You will NEVER be able to say that about 103lbs.
    What's your obsession with seniors? The BEST wrestlers at a particular weight should be the ones winning championships, not necessarily the OLDEST wrestlers. IME there is a mix of experience levels on a high school wrestling team. Some freshman have been wrestling for years, others are totally new.

    There are plenty of sophmores who have years of wrestling experience and they will sometimes be better than the senors, especially at the middle weights. Having seniors win championships is NOT the goal for a high school wrestling team. Having the BEST WRESTLERS win championships should be the goal.

  7. #43

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    It should be something special for a freshman to qualify for state. That is not the case anymore. Juniors and Seniors are the ones that dominate the state qualifiers from 130lbs and above. For a freshman to qualify at weights 130lbs and above its someone to look out for in the near future.
    I will smash your face into a car windshield and then take your mother, Dorothy Mantooth, out to a nice seafood dinner and never call her again!

    Tell me about it, this morning, I woke up and I shit a squirrel, but what I can't get is the damn thing is still alive. So now, I've got a shit covered squirrel running around my office and I don't know what to name it.

  8. #44

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    On our team we have 1 hwt and he is a freshman, we have 6 or 7 in the 160 to 215 range all soph or above, 6 or 7 in the 125 to 152 range some will have to wrestle up and they are all soph or above, 1 kid for 119 soph, 2 kids that could go 112 both freshman (1 of them is Karissa) and 3 at 103 they are sophs. Karissa will pull to here because she is better then them and that's where coach wants her to give our team a better chance to win.
    So we can fill the lightweights easier then Hwt. with better quality wrestlers.
    Our 3 incoming freshman will fill 103, 112, and hwt. we have not had a good Hwt in years but this freshman will make some noise, he is a multiple time trinity award winner in the WOW tournaments. Some of the upperclassmen around 215 will be pulling to fill lower weights because they cannot beat a freshman and then the upperclassmen around 103 and 112 are out of luck because they cannot beat the in coming freshman 1 of which is female.
    Now granted these 3 started wrestling when they were 5 and the guys they are beating on our team didn't start till jr. high, so they already have more experience then most of their upperclassmen.
    Our team may be the exception to the rule but why make changes that hurt the exceptions?
    I am sure my son will be 103 as a senior he is a 80lb 14 year old, he has been held back in the 3rd grade. He will be lucky to be 90lbs as a freshman but right now even giving up 20 plus pounds he can beat the sophs. we have trying to go 103lb (just can't beat his sister) but he too started at age 5.
    http://www.youtube.com/TonyAvallone
    Dad of Karissa 155lb Varsity College Freshman

  9. #45

    Default Re: Thoughts on poss. weight class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
    It should be something special for a freshman to qualify for state. That is not the case anymore. Juniors and Seniors are the ones that dominate the state qualifiers from 130lbs and above. For a freshman to qualify at weights 130lbs and above its someone to look out for in the near future.
    Our Hwt. will make state this year as a freshman.
    http://www.youtube.com/TonyAvallone
    Dad of Karissa 155lb Varsity College Freshman

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