Is this why MN coaches are trying to cut a weight class?

RD149-2 · 03-04-2008, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Champ Kind

I would like to see 103 bumped to 108-110lbs, 112 to 115lbs and maybe 119 to 120lbs and everything else the same.

I received 25 out of 32 sectional(first round of the state tournament) brackets this year in Indiana and decided to see where the most forfeits were. It was quite a bit more at 103 and 112. Note that Indiana does NOT allow middle school kids on the varsity team and in my opinion middle school kids should NEVER participate in varsity athletics.

My question is how many 8th graders start in Minnesota in basketball or football or any other sport? The reason there are more forfeits at the upper weights in Minnesota is they allow the 7th and 8th graders to wrestle. In states that they do not allow them to wrestle there are numerous forfeits at the lower weight classes.

Here is the data I compiled

http://garrettwrestling.com/brackets...trubution.html

is garrett the railroaders? Crazy?

Champ Kind · 03-04-2008, 04:06 PM

Crazy what?

How is the hardware business?

Proudpatriot · 03-04-2008, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Champ Kind

They have middle school athletics for middle school students, high school athletics is for high school students.

Do you go to a high school varsity football game to watch middle schoolers play football or juniors and seniors play?

There is no middle school wrestling around here. Middle school kids either go to youth tournaments or they wait until high school. What is the harm in middle school kids participating in varsity sports, at their own school?

If I am not mistaken the teams are for the KIDS not the spectators. It's not a matter of what I go to the games to watch. I watch whomever is playing. I think your priorities are reversed.

Champ Kind · 03-04-2008, 07:48 PM

My priorities are to have high school athletes on the high school teams. How many 8th graders are on the varsity football and basketball teams in Florida? That is why wrestling is considered a second class sport there. How do you explain to a casual observer that this middle schooler deserves to be a varsity athlete? Most of the time I would say they get the spot by default or by beating another middle schooler.

What does that say to the 8th grader who is 200lbs and solid athlete when he sees a 100lb kid get a varsity spot just because of his size? No wonder its hard to find big guys, its because they see all those classmates of theirs lettering because they are small not based on athletic ability.

Proudpatriot · 03-04-2008, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Champ Kind

My priorities are to have high school athletes on the high school teams. How many 8th graders are on the varsity football and basketball teams in Florida? That is why wrestling is considered a second class sport there. How do you explain to a casual observer that this middle schooler deserves to be a varsity athlete? Most of the time I would say they get the spot by default or by beating another middle schooler.

What does that say to the 8th grader who is 200lbs and solid athlete when he sees a 100lb kid get a varsity spot just because of his size? No wonder its hard to find big guys, its because they see all those classmates of theirs lettering because they are small not based on athletic ability.

How can you explain to a causal observer that an 8th grader does NOT deserve to be a varsity athlete?

My son earned his spot every week. There was no default at 103. We had THREE 103s who wrestled off before every tournament. Nobody won the spot by default. We also had a 7th grader as our starter at 119. He also had to wrestle off against 2 high school kids every week. Why shouldn't the better wrestlers win the spots? Why should the spots go to the high school kids simply because they are in high school?

We had multiple kids at the lower weights and middle weights but it was the heavier weights where there was no competition. Our coaches would have LOVED to have a 200 lb middle school kid. We had no 215. Our coach PUT a high school kid there who's natural weight was around 185 so that we could fill the spot. Our hwt won by forfeit more than any other wrestler on our team.

Champ Kind · 03-04-2008, 09:44 PM

What grade are the kids that your son had to wrestle-off?

And my example is probably one of the reasons you lack big guys on your team. They see the little guys getting varsity spots and lettering as middle schoolers and don't want to wait for their spot on the varsity team.

graduated · 03-05-2008, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Champ Kind

What grade are the kids that your son had to wrestle-off?

And my example is probably one of the reasons you lack big guys on your team. They see the little guys getting varsity spots and lettering as middle schoolers and don't want to wait for their spot on the varsity team.

Who cares what grade those kids were in? If the kid deserves to be out there by being the best then why shouldn't he be out there regardless of their age? Seriously Champ, what is your vendetta against the 'little guy'? You consistantly come on here and voice your opinion against having younger kids participate in varsity athletics. I know plenty of kids who participated on their local High School Varsity team, while being in 7th and 8th grade, and NO they weren't just wrestlers. Hockey players, Track stars, Cross Country runners, Skiiers, Cheerleaders, etc. ALL participated in their respective sport because they were BETTER than their competition, not because they needed a body to fill the lineup. Why do you think that they shouldn't be allowed to compete?

Where would Destin McCauley be? Or Eric Devos? Destin would be a 1X State Champion, and we would only be speculating on how good Devos would be. Eric Dominated the 103lb weight class this year, didn't allow a single offensive point against him. I don't care if he's in the smallest weight class that is impressive. Destin is one of the BEST wrestlers in MN period... and he's only a 9th grader. Ben Morgan the 112AAA State Champion is only an 8th grader, but he won a State Title at a weight class with some older kids, should he not have competed because he's only an 8th grader? PS, Ben showed tremendous Heart in his State Championship match! But I guess he shouldn't have even been there right?

I've said this before, but during my high school days my team struggled to find bigger wrestlers. I went to a school of 2500 kids, not exactly a small school. We had plenty of smaller kids come out for the sport, and almost always had out smaller weights filled, with good kids regardless of their age. We consistantley had to forfit or throw a JV wrestler out on the mat to fill 215 and HWT. And Please, just because bigger kids see smaller kids get "more"(as you put it) opportunities is not the reason that they don't come out for the sport.

Proudpatriot · 03-05-2008, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Champ Kind

What grade are the kids that your son had to wrestle-off?

And my example is probably one of the reasons you lack big guys on your team. They see the little guys getting varsity spots and lettering as middle schoolers and don't want to wait for their spot on the varsity team.

This past season my son had to wrestle off agains a 9th grader and 7th grader. He beat them both every week. Last season (his 7th grade year) he had to wrestle off against a 9th grader and he lost every week. I don't see why it matters what grade the kids were in. The fact of the matter is that all 7-12 graders at our school are eligible to wrestle on the team and there are multiple wrestlers at the lower/middle weight classes and we have trouble filling the higher weight classes. In fact our 215 is really a 189 bumped up because we don't have a true 215. Our 171, 189, 215 and 285 never had to wrestle off against anyone, yet our little guys had to wrestle off every week. Therefore we have MORE competition for the lower weight classes and LESS for the higher ones. Why would you want to eliminate the MOST competitive weight classes?

We have trouble filling the higher weight classes because most of the big guys are not athletic enough to wrestle. They're just fat.

In FL there are not that many middle schoolers who are eligible for varsity wrestling. Most public high schools run 9-12 and FHSAA rules require you to actually be in attendance at the high school you represent. It's not really much of an issue here but I find your opposition to it confusing. My son is one of the lucky ones because he was able to get 2 years of wrestling in before high school.

Proudpatriot · 03-05-2008, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by graduated

I've said this before, but during my high school days my team struggled to find bigger wrestlers. I went to a school of 2500 kids, not exactly a small school. We had plenty of smaller kids come out for the sport, and almost always had out smaller weights filled, with good kids regardless of their age. We consistantley had to forfit or throw a JV wrestler out on the mat to fill 215 and HWT. And Please, just because bigger kids see smaller kids get "more"(as you put it) opportunities is not the reason that they don't come out for the sport.

We have trouble finding big guys also. I don't believe that it has anything to do with little guys being on the wrestling team. At our school we have a great basketball program (middle school-high school) and most of the more athletic big guys are playing basketball. That leaves the fat big guys and they aren't interested in wrestling. We are a fairly small school with around 2000 students from PK3-12.

Champ Kind · 03-05-2008, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by graduated

Who cares what grade those kids were in? If the kid deserves to be out there by being the best then why shouldn't he be out there regardless of their age? Seriously Champ, what is your vendetta against the 'little guy'? You consistantly come on here and voice your opinion against having younger kids participate in varsity athletics. I know plenty of kids who participated on their local High School Varsity team, while being in 7th and 8th grade, and NO they weren't just wrestlers. Hockey players, Track stars, Cross Country runners, Skiiers, Cheerleaders, etc. ALL participated in their respective sport because they were BETTER than their competition, not because they needed a body to fill the lineup. Why do you think that they shouldn't be allowed to compete?

Where would Destin McCauley be? Or Eric Devos? Destin would be a 1X State Champion, and we would only be speculating on how good Devos would be. Eric Dominated the 103lb weight class this year, didn't allow a single offensive point against him. I don't care if he's in the smallest weight class that is impressive. Destin is one of the BEST wrestlers in MN period... and he's only a 9th grader. Ben Morgan the 112AAA State Champion is only an 8th grader, but he won a State Title at a weight class with some older kids, should he not have competed because he's only an 8th grader? PS, Ben showed tremendous Heart in his State Championship match! But I guess he shouldn't have even been there right?

I've said this before, but during my high school days my team struggled to find bigger wrestlers. I went to a school of 2500 kids, not exactly a small school. We had plenty of smaller kids come out for the sport, and almost always had out smaller weights filled, with good kids regardless of their age. We consistantley had to forfit or throw a JV wrestler out on the mat to fill 215 and HWT. And Please, just because bigger kids see smaller kids get "more"(as you put it) opportunities is not the reason that they don't come out for the sport.

Those wrestlers you listed are exceptions to the rules. Who were they wrestling for those state titles... 7th and 8th graders with some 9th graders. Wouldn't they be wrestling those 7th and 8th graders if they were in middle school? There are always going to be good kids like that, I am sure here in Indiana if Alex Tsirtsis or Angel Escobedo could have wrestled as 7th and 8th graders they would have done pretty well. That surely doesn't make it right for them to allow 7th and 8th graders if a few would have had success.

The biggest problem letting middle school kids on the team is it hurts the bigger kids that are just as talented, but have to wait to become varsity as a sophomore or junior. Those kids have to wait to physically mature to become a varsity athlete, yet the other kids that are just as talented have spots on the varsity and are getting letters because they are small. Those big kids are giving up on the sport at an early age and it is hurting them and the sport.

I just don't see anything good coming from allowing middle school kids on the varsity team. As I stated earlier if I want to go watch a varsity football team I want to see high school athletes on the field, not a bunch of middle schoolers. And yes the fans to drive the sport and its popularity, the fans bring money to the sport and if there are not many fans the sport will suffer. Wrestling is already a second class sport, its not helping by having middle schoolers on the varsity team. I have seen more than my share or middle school wrestling and can only stomach so much as its not the best wrestling there is by far.

Is this why MN coaches are trying to cut a weight class?

High School Wrestling