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Thread: Burroughs will be our only Freestyle Olympic Gold

  1. #19

    Default Re: Burroughs will be our only Freestyle Olympic Gold

    gbdaz is fair in his assessment but slightly biased towards the iranians usually. I respect what he says. Judo is heavily biased towards the iranians and has made that clear in many of his posts. I think that Burroughs is impossible to prepare for unless you can find a duplicate of him. His speed and explosiveness is almost impossible to match. If you find a duplicate of him to train with then you are not going to be wrestling him in the worlds or olympics because most likely the duplicate will be on the team.

  2. #20

    Default Re: Burroughs will be our only Freestyle Olympic Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    Judo and GbDaz, I remember that throw Goudrazi got, that was a 50/50 call and and it went in Burrough's favor. Perhaps I need to rewatch the match but I remember Burroughs scoring almost at will the rest of the match. Burroughs is just so hard to game plan for, even if you know his style. He's so fast you don't want to give him space, but he's so strong it's hard to control the ties against him.

    I stick by my opinion. JB is a slight favorite over Tsargush (maybe 55/45) and a big favorite over Goudrazi. In time we'll see if I'm right or not.
    You need to rewatch the match!

    There is no 50/50, it was wrongly scored. Should have been 3 for Goudarzi. I see Goudarzi winning the rematch.

  3. #21

    Default Re: Burroughs will be our only Freestyle Olympic Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by whipover5 View Post
    gbdaz is fair in his assessment but slightly biased towards the iranians usually. I respect what he says. Judo is heavily biased towards the iranians and has made that clear in many of his posts. I think that Burroughs is impossible to prepare for unless you can find a duplicate of him. His speed and explosiveness is almost impossible to match. If you find a duplicate of him to train with then you are not going to be wrestling him in the worlds or olympics because most likely the duplicate will be on the team.
    This is hilarious. Ever heard the phrase ''the pot calling the kettle black''?

    Athletic and attacking low isn't impossible to train for. I think Saritov showed this with Sanderson (control the wrists!). I doubt JB will medal.

    I am not overly biased towards Iranians. I am a big fan of all wrestlers who have something interesting to bring to the table. I love this russian/chechen style of wrestling of throw bys and upper body throws employed by the likes of Geduev, Saritov, Saitiev, Gadisov (when he was smaller particularly). I think my opinion of Iranian wrestlers is fair and critical. The Iranians are less slick than the Russians but still very technical and particularly strong with groundwork. I at time even support a decent foreign wrestler over a sub par Iranian wrestler.

    I think the thing that irks you is that I am not a big fan of American wrestlers, but is it my fault the Americans concentrate on cutting weight, shooting low and being fitter than the competition? this is ugly wrestling and won't make a fan of me. I won't apologise for this!

    Your attempts to criticise me are just embarrassing and hypocritical, especially given your position. I suggest you talk about wrestling instead of criticising my wrestling knowledge.
    Last edited by JudoWrestler; 02-01-2012 at 04:27 PM.

  4. #22

    Default Re: Burroughs will be our only Freestyle Olympic Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoWrestler View Post
    You need to rewatch the match!

    There is no 50/50, it was wrongly scored. Should have been 3 for Goudarzi. I see Goudarzi winning the rematch.
    I did. Best I can tell Goudrazi's foot was out but not all the way out. Not sure what the current edition of the rule book states on the out of bounds rule. Looks like they reviewed it and confirmed the Burroughs point.

    Speaking of Burroughs, I don't remember ever watching someone at the highest level who finishes single legs as effortlessly as he does.

  5. #23

    Default Re: Burroughs will be our only Freestyle Olympic Gold

    Burroughs was very much on the Russians and Iranians radar before the Worlds, so again you're being biased to assert he will not medal because they'll be able to prepare for low attacks. After beating Geduev comfortably at Beat the Streets and dominating Ukraine Memorial it would shock me if Burroughs wasn't taken seriously (you certainly have zero basis to suggest otherwise). Of course the foreigners will be better prepared to face him in London, just as it's expected for him to have improved his versatility as a freestyle wrestler and his ability to compete against the Russian/Iranian style. It's very rare for wrestlers to roll through World/Olympics multiple times, and when they do that wrestler has really separated themselves from the field. Burroughs is absolutely not at that level from what I saw at 2011 Worlds, he has too many vulnerabilities and he's too one-dimensional. What makes him such a tremendous threat that I guarantee the Russian coaches are taking far more seriously than you apparently are is that he has so much room for improvement. It's perfectly fine to have a style preference, but you're going to have to be more specific than simply retorting "athletic and attacking low isn't impossible to train for." Of course it's not impossible! You're suggesting that not only can they train for him, but that it will be easy and that he's a level below technically. Ever heard of John Smith? It's certainly a different era but if Burroughs develops his par terre (which is apparently his primary focus right now) then he'll be a serious handful for any opponent no matter how thoroughly they prepare for him.

  6. #24

    Default Re: Burroughs will be our only Freestyle Olympic Gold

    Quote Originally Posted by bwh27 View Post
    Burroughs was very much on the Russians and Iranians radar before the Worlds, so again you're being biased to assert he will not medal because they'll be able to prepare for low attacks. After beating Geduev comfortably at Beat the Streets and dominating Ukraine Memorial it would shock me if Burroughs wasn't taken seriously (you certainly have zero basis to suggest otherwise). Of course the foreigners will be better prepared to face him in London, just as it's expected for him to have improved his versatility as a freestyle wrestler and his ability to compete against the Russian/Iranian style. It's very rare for wrestlers to roll through World/Olympics multiple times, and when they do that wrestler has really separated themselves from the field. Burroughs is absolutely not at that level from what I saw at 2011 Worlds, he has too many vulnerabilities and he's too one-dimensional. What makes him such a tremendous threat that I guarantee the Russian coaches are taking far more seriously than you apparently are is that he has so much room for improvement. It's perfectly fine to have a style preference, but you're going to have to be more specific than simply retorting "athletic and attacking low isn't impossible to train for." Of course it's not impossible! You're suggesting that not only can they train for him, but that it will be easy and that he's a level below technically. Ever heard of John Smith? It's certainly a different era but if Burroughs develops his par terre (which is apparently his primary focus right now) then he'll be a serious handful for any opponent no matter how thoroughly they prepare for him.

    I think you're massively over stating how much wrestlers prepared for Burroughs. I think his style is quite obvious and if prepared for can be combated. I don't think he has much room for improvement, because technical wrestling has a steep learning curve whereas being athletic, avoiding hand fighting and shooting low does not and strategising against it is not that difficult.
    It is a bit like Sokhiev and Ketsoyev, these two wrestlers are incredibly powerful and have there strong explosive attacks but when everyone knows what their attack it can be defended and they will have difficulty from then on. Their lack of technical skills will not allow them to adapt to a competitive environment where everyone knows their main offence.
    Now that Burroughs is a world champ everyone will know what to expect and will practise against it. He will not perform that great from now on.


    A technical & intelligent wrestler can become strong and athletic, but it is much harder for a athletic & strong wrestler to use his brain and technique. He is a level below technically and that is being nice. You can disagree with me but you will see in time my prediction to become true. If i was wrong it would be Cuba dominating wrestling and not Russia.

    This is the American tradition; have successful wrestlers who shoot low who then go on to be out matched by wrestlers who know what to expect.

    I am also curious about his competitive life cycle, because he looks bigger than all of his opponents. I can infer he is a big weight cutter and he will have a short shelf life. (who needs wrestling skills when we can just train on how to cheat the weight allocation system?)
    Last edited by JudoWrestler; 02-01-2012 at 07:22 PM.

  7. #25

    Default Re: Burroughs will be our only Freestyle Olympic Gold

    I'm glad to see some good discussion on here finally.

    I agree with whoever said JB was def on the radar because of Ukraine. I was there and everyone was talking about him. At first the russians and ukrainians were unimpressed (maybe slightly offended as well), but by the final he was getting more cheers than anyone. If he is reading this I hope it doesn't go to his head.

    Are Tsargush and Goudrazi better technicians? Possibly, but that isn't what is up for debate. This isn't karate and you don't get world medals for just having good technique. JB is on a different level of athleticism that allows him to do things that no one else in that weight can do. He knows that and wrestles a style that is very difficult to stop.

    Regarding the large weight cutting, Goudrazi is a huge 74 and weighs more than JB. B. Saitiev also melted to get down to 74. What a trash wrestler he was.

    In the second round of the world final, it may have been Goudrazi's points, but who's to say that Burroughs wouldnt have won anyway? Also, who had a better angle, us watching youtube, or the several refs who all reviewed the film?

    I am excited to see how people adapt to wrestle him, but remember that Burroughs is also adapting the way he wrestles in anticipation of this.

    In reference to the comments about the particular styles of each country, take a look at the national teams of Russia, Iran and USA. All of the #1s on the Russian and USA teams have their own style and are very successful with them. I would say it is the Iranians who seemed the most homogeneous and less dynamic at the last world championships. Still seems to be working for them though.

  8. #26

    Default Re: Burroughs will be our only Freestyle Olympic Gold

    Funny how perceptions change... before this year's Yarygin people were a lot less enamoured with Tsargush's technique. In fact it seemed like his standard point-per-period was often scored by brute strength (driving someone out of bounds) or through clinches.

    Judo, how do you become more athletic? Maybe we are using the words differently but I always thought of athleticism as natural talent, whereas technique is learned.

    I think JB will have to put up with a lot of the same things as Kudukhov... grabbing his wrists, backing up, and generally trying to stall him out.

  9. #27

    Default Re: Burroughs will be our only Freestyle Olympic Gold

    so the way I am understanding what judo is posting is that, if you are strong quick and athletic you cannot also be technical? Makes no sense to me.

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