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Thread: Wtf

  1. #28

    Default Re: Wtf

    Let me start by saying what I have first hand experience in, and see all of the time: You put 2 guys on the mat, and anything can happen. Back in the day when you had 12 weights, it was a crapshoot for results. Anyone could get lucky. You saw alot of success purely on the fact that you had 60% more weight classes than today. You also had half of the competition with the Soviet Union.

    Now, I will say what I think is needed to get the U.S more competitive. It has nothing to do with coaches or learning technique at the age of 24. It will simply take more guys doing freestyle/greco right out of H.S or even earlier. Yes, some guys are good enough to come out of college wrestling folkstyle and place at worlds/olympics, but in the system we have today with seven weights and 20 teams from the Soviet Union, it will be extremely rare. Wrestling at this level is a feel/reaction thing. Most cant get that in a few years, no matter who the coach is.

  2. #29

    Default Re: Wtf

    Regarding fleeing the hold; it happens but it's rare. Not sure what the official FILA rule is but when I was competing in Canada, you basically had to back right out of the ties repeatedly get penalized. Simply "stalling" won't do it.

    Someone pointed out on themat.com that there's a strong correlation between jr. world titles and sr. level success. I'm pretty sure each sr. freestyle champ this year except Kumar is a jr. world champion. Canada has real trouble doing any damage at the Jr. worlds. We seem to develop our 'imports' pretty well but have trouble gettin our locally born athletes to succeed at the jrs. I don't know how it is in the United States, but I know that the last two American jr. world champs- Jenkins and Bradley- are competing for college teams rather than training to be world champs. The Russian, Iranian, Azeri etc jr. world champs are competing against, and often beating, the sr. level freestyle wrestlers on a regular basis.

  3. #30

    Default Re: Wtf

    Quote Originally Posted by TLV View Post
    Well then........if stalling isn't called......then it is not part of FS wrestling............so adapt and change styles to meet the challenge. You cannot complain that we lose because international wrestling doens't use our strategy. We are the minority and as long as we stick with Catch as Catch Can wrestling, we will behind the eightball.
    JMO
    WELL SAID
    I totally agree, most of our excuses go back to the fact that our style is just too far away from the FILA rules and freestyle and greco rules, well then the only thing that would make sense and make us better internationally is to CHANGE OUR FOLKSTYLE TO MIMIC MORE OF A FILA STYLE I know this is very unpopular to say and frankly I do not like FILA rules/changes/governing body etc but it is the only way we will catch back up is to get our guys training for it from day 1!

  4. #31

    Default Re: Wtf

    I have pointed out several times on this forum that it is not necessary for the United States to follow the FILA format (best of 3 periods, tie breakers, clinches etc) in order to be become better at freestyle. High school or NCAA wrestlers could wrestle a "hybrid style" in whcih the scoring (back exposures, out of bounds, ect) follows freestyle but which still has the 7 minute matches, stalling warnings, and lack of clinches that folkstyle has. Hell, the US could hold international tournaments with financial rewards in that style.

  5. #32
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    Default Re: Wtf

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtyholt View Post
    Let me start by saying what I have first hand experience in, and see all of the time: You put 2 guys on the mat, and anything can happen. Back in the day when you had 12 weights, it was a crapshoot for results. Anyone could get lucky. You saw alot of success purely on the fact that you had 60% more weight classes than today. You also had half of the competition with the Soviet Union.

    Now, I will say what I think is needed to get the U.S more competitive. It has nothing to do with coaches or learning technique at the age of 24. It will simply take more guys doing freestyle/greco right out of H.S or even earlier. Yes, some guys are good enough to come out of college wrestling folkstyle and place at worlds/olympics, but in the system we have today with seven weights and 20 teams from the Soviet Union, it will be extremely rare. Wrestling at this level is a feel/reaction thing. Most cant get that in a few years, no matter who the coach is.
    Thanks for the reply.
    I think you are 100% right, we forget how much tougher it is to win a medal now. Reduce all the wrestlers from the Russia, former Soviet Republics, and any freelancers like Shahin down to one per weight class and then add three more weight classes.

    Although I partially disagree with the "anyone can get lucky and medal" reasoning. That does seem to happen for the US (Zadicks,Eggum and maybe even Herbert) but with the truly world class teams, their good guys get medals on a regualr basis, year after year. Occasionally they get "unlucky" and don't medal.

    We need to ditch Folkstyle and wrestle like the rest of the world if we want to compete with them or at least make the rules more similar to FS. It is never going to happen, so I need to let it go and stop caring.

  6. #33
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    Default Re: Wtf

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    I have pointed out several times on this forum that it is not necessary for the United States to follow the FILA format (best of 3 periods, tie breakers, clinches etc) in order to be become better at freestyle. High school or NCAA wrestlers could wrestle a "hybrid style" in whcih the scoring (back exposures, out of bounds, ect) follows freestyle but which still has the 7 minute matches, stalling warnings, and lack of clinches that folkstyle has. Hell, the US could hold international tournaments with financial rewards in that style.
    Awseome idea...I don't see it happening. Not enough people care about wrestling outside of HS, outside a few states in the Midwest, even college wrestling does not really matter to most wrestling fans.

  7. #34

    Default Re: Wtf

    Quote Originally Posted by arm-spin View Post
    I have pointed out several times on this forum that it is not necessary for the United States to follow the FILA format (best of 3 periods, tie breakers, clinches etc) in order to be become better at freestyle. High school or NCAA wrestlers could wrestle a "hybrid style" in whcih the scoring (back exposures, out of bounds, ect) follows freestyle but which still has the 7 minute matches, stalling warnings, and lack of clinches that folkstyle has. Hell, the US could hold international tournaments with financial rewards in that style.
    I totally agree with you being that we must change our present style in order to make the transition to FILA more comfortable for our guys. Whether it be a hybrid style or a twin of FILA we need to change our style to incorporate exposure points and limit our concentration on riding, because it has no place in international competitions. I am all for keeping our formats in tourneys the same as well as our aggressive push the pace style of offense that is preached by the top programs but we MUST adapt to the exposure points and lower our standard for back points and mat wrestling. We should incorporate the ability to lock hands from the top posititon or we will stay well behind the curve internationally

  8. #35
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    Default Re: Wtf

    Quote Originally Posted by therick View Post
    ....

    I'm not all that well versed in Judo, but I've noticed some people on different boards commenting on the throw techniques by the Russians as often being based on Judo technique. Is this a correct observation?
    I have a lot of years in Judo and my analysis is that in Judo they don't emphaisze the back arch throwing techniques that we think of as the classic wrestling throws. The more common Judo throws that translate into wrestling are hip techniques like a headlock. Much like in wrestling, the standard headlock hip throw technique works well with kids, but stops working as athletes get older and and better. To make this type of throw more effective in both Judo and wrestling (and MMA) extra power is generated from a leg sweep, these throws are called Uchi-mata and harai-gosh in Judo and I have heard them called the same in MMA. I don't know if there is a name in wrestling for this type of throw.
    To see a greeat example of a harai-gosh, see the final takedown in the GSP-Matt Hughes fight #3.

    It seems the Russians can execute both the back arching technique and the Judo type throws.

  9. #36
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    Default Re: Wtf

    Some more thoughts:
    In my limited international wrestling experience, I felt the foriegn wrestlers seemed to hold back and pace themselves and let the oppenent attack and just defend. Then only when they had a high percentage move, they would exlode and execute their attack.

    This seems similar to the way Judo has been taught to me. The philosophy is more to "flow", to play grips, focus on timing and wait for an openning. There is less emphasis on overpowering the opponent than there is on attacking when he is off-balance and only going full speed (exploding) during the attack.

    After twenty years of doing Judo, it is a different world when I roll with a wrestler. The force and aggressiveness is completely different. The US wrestling philosophy is more to go 100% all the time and wear down/beat up the oppenent.

    I don't know if this is part of our problem and is part of a deeper problem with our wrestling philosophy.
    This may be a rephrasing of the John Smith v. Dan Gable/Iowa mentality.

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