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Thread: Is "Freedom" often just another term for "Control"?

  1. #1
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    Default Is "Freedom" often just another term for "Control"?

    Lets see. With freedom to own private property also comes control of the land where other people are forbidden to go.

    With freedom to buy a car come a burden of having to own one because other venues of transportation are not as developed.

    With freedom of the market to choose which professions are more profitable comes control of what people have to do to become successful in society.

    With freedom of "supply and demand" system comes the burden of paying high price for rent or mortgage since everyone needs one or the other.

    Just some thoughts that freedom in my opinion often puts restraint on people that is not often seen in countries with "less freedoms".

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    "Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose."
    Atrophy: what you get when you win atournament.

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    Pure and simple, freedom is the right to CHOOSE.

    With freedom to own private property also comes control of the land where other people are forbidden to go.

    You CHOOSE to forbid access to your property, no law says others cannot use your property, if you so CHOOSE to allow them to do so.

    With freedom to buy a car come a burden of having to own one because other venues of transportation are not as developed.

    The public transportation system is well developed, you CHOOSE to live away from where it is most accessible.

    With freedom of the market to choose which professions are more profitable comes control of what people have to do to become successful in society.

    The "market" does not "CHOOSE" which professions are more valued, the consumers, supply and demand determine which are of greater value. Ideas and knowledge determine success. Do you think the market motivated Gates and Jobs to dork around with 1s and 2s on a screen and play around with something so unuseful at the time - that is said "you guys are so unique we're going to make you guys billionaires".

    People CHOOSE to make what they can out of career. Everyone on this board has a unique career; so unique, no two have the same career. Some are cash wealthy, some are personally wealthy, but each and every poster CHOSE how he/she wanted to be involved in society.

    With freedom of "supply and demand" system comes the burden of paying high price for rent or mortgage since everyone needs one or the other.

    Tis true, supply and demand determines the market value of property. In some markets property values are extraordinarily high, in others quite low. You CHOOSE to live in a high value market. May I suggest you take a peek at the rents and housing values in San Antonio. You have the freedom to move you know.


    Just some thoughts that freedom in my opinion often puts restraint on people that is not often seen in countries with "less freedoms".


    People CHOSE to constrain their own ability. Unfortuately self-constraint is often a bred by family and environment and by the time one recognizes the inherent constraint, they feel it is too late to change. Fortunately, we continue to observe incredible success stories of children lifting themselves out of the depths of society to become incredibly successful in it. They CHOSE to get out.

    The only "restraints" on an anyone in the American society is that which an individual places on him or herself.


    Freedom is the right to choose: the right to create for yourself the alternatives of choice. Without the possibility of choice and the exercise of choice a man is not a man but a member, an instrument, a thing."
    ? Archibald MacLeish

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    Wow, I simply pointed out constraints that come with freedom or CHOOSING as you put it.

    Simple Example: In a society where many pairs of shoes can be owned, one is expected to wear different shoes every day. In other words, no freedom to feel ok with wearing the same shoes for a week.

    With freedom and choices also come expectations.

    As far as private property, yes, someone can CHOOSE whether I can play soccer on a certain field or not. Is that freedom for me?
    Last edited by Big; 04-21-2007 at 07:56 PM.

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    Olympic Champ RYou's Avatar
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    Simple Example: In a society where many pairs of shoes can be owned, one is expected to wear different shoes every day. In other words, no freedom to feel ok with wearing the same shoes for a week.

    Hey, Big Imelda, who wrote the rule about wearing a different pair of shoes everyday? I never head of that one. While I have several pair of shoes, I'll frequently wear the same pair 5 days in a row. You CHOOSE your shoes by your CHOICE of outfit you are wearing.

    As far as private property, yes, someone can CHOOSE whether I can play soccer on a their field or not. Is that freedom for me?

    So what you are saying is that if I CHOOSE to own a car, you should have the freedom to drive it. it's the same as me owning land and you wanting to roam about on it.

    If I own a home, you should have the freedom to sleep in it ?

    Was that the way of life in Russia ? I don't think so.

    If it makes you feel better, there is a NJ law that says if I own land abutting the Atlantic Ocean, I can't prevent others from using it. Now, how would you feel about paying for a multi-million dollar piece of property and having to share it with others ? Now that is freedom taken away.

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    No, what I am saying is many people own huge pieces of land and anyone that steps on it is a trespasser. Doesn't Bush own like acres of land? Who said a man has the right to just buy up pieces of Earth?

    In your language, did God say people can just claim God's Earth for themselves?

    Your house and your car are different because they are in the immediate proximity to you and your needs.

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    The only "restraints" on an anyone in the American society is that which an individual places on him or herself.

    I totally disagree. That's rhetoric, not reality. Yours is the argument the SCt made in Lochner (1906) when they said New York couldn't require bakers to work more than 60 hours per week, because it was a "contract" between the bakers and their employers. The reality is, the bakers weren't really "free" to walk away from their jobs, especially with families to feed. In a hypothetical sense we're all free to do whatever, but there are real limits on what you can actually do depending on your individual circumstances.

    Up until about the 1920s (I believe), women couldn't own property. So much for their freedom. Up until the 1960s blacks (depending on where you were) couldn't vote or get an education, or work in many professions. So much for their "freedom". And let's acknowledge that what happened 50-100-150 years ago, affects who we are today.

    Your Gates example implies that we all started on a level playing field and he succeeded whereas other didn't. Well, we don't start on level playing fields. He came from a background that enabled him to go to Harvard. That would be an unrealistic goal for most of us. Conversely, I have yet to see evidence that GW Bush ever excelled in school at any level, yet he went to Yale and Harvard. His father had connections. He was free to take opportunities that simply aren't or weren't available to most of us.

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    Up until about the 1920s (I believe), women couldn't own property. So much for their freedom.


    Well, some time in the second trimester the fetus CHOSE to be a female.

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    Lets see. With freedom to own private property also comes control of the land where other people are forbidden to go.

    Big, do you ever wonder how ownership of property started? I think about this, especially living out here in the West. In Colorado in the 1850s (not so long ago), there was no land "property" in the state except perhaps in the Southern part where the King of Spain probably granted some land to Hispanic settlers. White settlers didn't start coming in mass until at least 1859 when gold was discovered. All of a sudden then, there was "property" including, as you mention, the right to exclude others. How was this property established? As near as I can tell, most came from filing a claim saying "this is mine" and having the government recognize it. It may have been an implicit or explicit duty to work the land (although today Colorado's mountains are littered with abandoned mines), but otherwise how did this land become "property" other than someone (you'd have to male and white then) saying "it's mine".

    Nowadays, when they talk about ranchers here, I often hear it said, "they've owned and operated this ranch for generations". Knowing the history of Colorado, I figure the generations don't go back all that far (unless you're from one of the old Hispanic families). I'm not begruding the ranchers or anyone else's claim to land, but I think RYou's implied notion that all of this was "earned" and "by the sweat of my brow" sort of rests on shaky ground.

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